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Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67223] Wed, 15 August 2001 07:52 Go to next message
LokiOne is currently offline LokiOne

 
Messages:52
Registered:February 2001
Location: Issaquah, WA 98029 USA
As my team expands throughout the country I've stumbled across several gunrunner outposts. Todate I've walked in, looked around but refrained from taking anything (to avoid the fire fight that would ensue). I have the mines at Chitzina, Drassen and Alma plus have three of the S.A.M. sites under my control. I have avoided San Mona and Kingpin so far (but have terminated every assassin sent to get me so far) and nobody seemed to mind my taking and using the Eldorodo.

Now, I've captured the Cambria mine (moving up from the Prison) and am moving into the rest of the town in the middle of the night. When I went into the sector above the mine (the one with the bank) I was taking out enemy soldiers when a gunrunner suddenly charged my folks from out of the dark and opened fire, hitting Slay. Why?

None of my shots came anywhere near the gunrunners but now I am knee-deep fighting them and the soldiers at the same time. Not really a problem but it now means I can't snoop around any gunrunner facility without killing the defenders first.

My questions: Why are the gunrunners in Cambria to begin with? If I attack in daylight (something I'll go back and try tonight) will the gunrunners attack my mercs and rebels when all I want to do is take out the Queen's soldiers?

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Corporal
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67224] Wed, 15 August 2001 09:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Col Leo Kelly is currently offline Col Leo Kelly

 
Messages:39
Registered:August 2001
Location: Wherever AIM sends me
Something similar happened to me. When I encountered my very first gun runner outpost (the one east of Alma), I was careful not to shoot any green and white guys. They seemed just fine with that. After I had taken care of Alma, I went back to the same outpost (at night) and was greeted with the "Alert! Alert! Intruder" speech. I am fairly sure that I hadn't attacked any gun runner up to that point.

I suspect that if you show up at night, they assume you are there to do harm since any friendly would show up in the light of day. Perhaps if you go back to Cambria during the morning you will get a different result.

On the other hand, for a bunch of arms dealers they have really wimpy guns and no armor so I didn't find taking them out was much of a challenge. I enjoy a good shooter and they just supplied me with more targets so I didn't mind.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67225] Wed, 15 August 2001 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grifman is currently offline Grifman

 
Messages:5
Registered:December 2000
It's been previously stated that approaching the gunrunners at night will lead to them attacking you.

Grifman

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67226] Wed, 15 August 2001 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt.Slaughter is currently offline Sgt.Slaughter

 
Messages:7
Registered:July 2001
Location: Berlin, Germany
And why avoid them, just blow 'em up Smile

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67227] Thu, 16 August 2001 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Batman is currently offline Batman

 
Messages:363
Registered:January 2001
Location: Gotham City
This is actually very good feedback for us... The reason game balance was off in JA2DL is because we WANTED the player to engage the Gun Runners so they would always be a problem... that's why there are "goodies" in those sectors...

What is good to know is that, even when TRYING to avoid a confrontation, one eventually happend Wink

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/smilies/batman.gif

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Master Sergeant

Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67228] Thu, 16 August 2001 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
The key here is NIGHT! You don't come skulking around in my back yard in the dark either! They don't seem to mind you walking around in the daylight, just so you don't touch anything. However, I found myself blasting the place up like it was Dodge City!
I didn't even pick up any of their stuff, I just killed them for the XP that my team got from the battle!

------------------
Never throw rocks at a man who has a machine gun!

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67229] Thu, 16 August 2001 03:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khaine is currently offline Khaine

 
Messages:65
Registered:July 2001
Location: Bergen, Hordaland, Norway
I'm not sure, but I think the GR's in Cambria will attack anyway. In my last game they were friendly for one turn, but then suddenly turned against me. I don't really consider it a problem though. It's a lot more challenging to kill them all off than to attempt avoiding to shoot them. Blast them away and pick up their stuff. Good for morale and marksmanship.

------------------
"Even when struck down, I will again rise.
I will not be defeated, nor will I demise.
I will strike my foes with a vengeance so hard,
they will be the ones left scarred."

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Corporal
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67230] Thu, 16 August 2001 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quetzalc is currently offline Quetzalc
Messages:3
Registered:July 2001
Location: Bergen
If you enter a GR-zone at night, the first GR that sees you, usually shouts:
"Alert, Alert. Intruders in area" or someting like that, and then all hell breaks loose. If you enter a GR-zone by day, nothing happens.

Note that when you kill your first GR, you will be the sworn enemy of GRs everywhere.

------------------
Just give me a big enough gun and I'll conquer the world. (or at least make some noise)

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Civilian
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67231] Thu, 16 August 2001 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Warhawk is currently offline Warhawk
Messages:4
Registered:July 2001
Location: SC
The only thing I hate about the GR's is that they aren't overtly hostile to you (ie after you have only wiped out your first two sites or you engage a army patrol in a GR sector) they can run right up to you before your mercs treat them as hostile and that really pissed me off. Because one was able to close the distance to Jubilee and unload an ENTIRE burst of Jackhammer fire into her head. That seems a little unbalanced. I mean if I saw some guy running towards me with a shotgun and murder in his eyes I sure as hell would fire. But I suppose that's the way the AI handles engaging "civilian" targets.

Warhawk

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Civilian
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67232] Thu, 16 August 2001 05:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt.Slaughter is currently offline Sgt.Slaughter

 
Messages:7
Registered:July 2001
Location: Berlin, Germany
But I still think balance is way to go..

The german DL version sports several bugs:

- Striker vest has only 15% protection
- burstbug still there
- gunrunners respawn each time you leave their sector, thats
actually a V1.02 bug

...and still people are completing DL easily.

I made a little patch for the german DL, available at Ja2basis, which downgrades the weapons by about 2 damagepoints and some other things, initially just for myself because the game was incredibly easy. I've also switched to playing only dayops because of the powerful SL9SD. However in my opinion it would even be necessary to edit the maps to take out the Miniguns etc. that come way too early in the game.
I don't disagree on making a "massacre weapons" patch that DL effectively is, but some things like the napalm grenade are totally overdone and really destroyed the fun for me.

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67233] Thu, 16 August 2001 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
Dear Sgt Slaughter,
I am prefacing this with don't take this wrong, but if the game is too easy I suggest, of course, playing expert and NOT using anything that you feel is too powerful. A lot of people LOVE the Pulse Rifle, but I don't use it at all. I don't use the EMP Cannon either. I do, however, use the living sh*t out of the Barrett and the Napalm. I guess it's just a question of personal preference.
As I said everyone has their own style and likes/dislikes. The game is a finished product though and all these suggestions will have to be implemented on subsequent projects.
Thank you for your input.
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/smilies/rudedog2.gif

------------------
Never throw rocks at a man who has a machine gun!

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67234] Thu, 16 August 2001 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt.Slaughter is currently offline Sgt.Slaughter

 
Messages:7
Registered:July 2001
Location: Berlin, Germany
Rude Dog, of course I play on expert, all the time.
The problem is actually that I don't understand why it should be necessary to not use certain guns. Of course I don't use the Railgun, almost nobody does. I've stopped using UV goggles too, but the real problem is I don't understand why the excessive high damage ratings. Have the developers of DL actually played some of the harder UB campaigns? The bog-standard CAWS is enough to kill a maxed-out elite with green spectra easily. In DL a 20mm HE grenade is stronger than a mortarbomb and a LAW combined. It's ok if you like FPS shooters and such, but it destroys the tactical aspect of the game.

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67235] Fri, 17 August 2001 01:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Batman is currently offline Batman

 
Messages:363
Registered:January 2001
Location: Gotham City
Very good points Sgt.Slaughter,

Some of the things we are planning for the next game are:

Using the "Tons of Guns" Feature to separate realistic weapons from non-realistic (Railgun).

So far in the Weapons MOD I am playtesting, I have taken 3 Cities and 2 SAMs and have yet to have found a sniper rifle. I only have 3 rifles which have a range over 30 and so far my most powerful weapon has a damage capability of 33, however, I am on my last ammo clip and once used, that weapon will be useless... (Note: the only reason I have these 2 weapons in the first place was because I took Alma as my second city)

Bobby Ray's Has JUST STARTED selling me low grade SMGs... Tony in San Mona is still only offering pistols... And although I've found an M70, I only have 2 stun grenades to go with it...

I think things like NAPALM are "cool" to play with, however, I think in JA2DL, they are just too easily found. It would change the balance significantly if you only had a few of these and had too use them sparingly.

The new Weapons MOD I am testing is primarily filled with short range weapons. Out of the 38 possible weapons, there are;

15 pistols (Average Range is 16, Damage 26)
11 SMGs (Average Range is 23, Damage 27)
5 Rifles (Average Range is 32, Damage 31)
3 Shotguns (Average Range is 15, Damage 40)
2 Sniper Rifles (Average Range is 50, Damage 35)
2 Unique Weapons (Average Range is 40, Damage 35)

Obviously the unique weapons could be elimiated by NOT selecting "Tons of Guns"...

Game Balance is one of our primary concerns in the next game... Wink

Thanks,
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/smilies/batman.gif

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Master Sergeant

Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67236] Fri, 17 August 2001 01:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
In all reality, I HATE FPS's. I have played JA2 about 9,000,000 times with different squads, tactics and time frames. I've done the same thing with JA2DL. I found that the most fun I've had with it is when I go in ALONE on Expert. I kill everything I can, including the Rebels, and only hire someone to train militia so I don't lose the mines and I have a Base Camp to dump and replenish supplies. I have no problem telling you that I have beefed up my weapons in these forays so that I have a lower AP cost. I don't change the damage stats though. I like to kill! In the current game I have killed off the Rebels and hired Flo and Biff to come train militia. When I sent them downstairs in A10 Biff got roached by the repawned non-comms that hide in the corner of the room. Oh well I guess my first time using him was short lived! Flo has improved rather quickly by shooting and punching her way through the rest of the civilians down there. I have even gotten some Steyr Scouts at the SAM site nearby to bolster my tiny force. Downside is that I am only at 17% loyalty in Drassen, so militia will have to wait! I don't think I'll hire anyone else until I absolutely HAVE to!
Am I rambling?

------------------
Never throw rocks at a man who has a machine gun!

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67237] Fri, 17 August 2001 03:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LokiOne is currently offline LokiOne

 
Messages:52
Registered:February 2001
Location: Issaquah, WA 98029 USA
Yes, you folks are correct! I went back to an earlier SAVEGAME and entered during daylight and I only had to fight the Queen's soldiers. The gunrunners left me alone and only moved during the CIVILIAN movement phase. What's up with their desire to run up to your mercs and cluster around them? It's as if they want to get hit by a stray bullet.

However, if you take anything from the buildings and there is a gunrunner present to see you, he will attack you and then the other gunrunners throughout that sector will unload on your teammates as well.

The question then became, do I want to continue to ignore the gunrunners and attack during daylight or go back to the SAVEGAME where I entered in the dark of night and had to fight all of them?

SPOILER ALERT!
If you opt to stay with the night attack you can get some regen booster shots, a couple of pretty good weapons (including the first minigun I ever saw) and almost $25K in cash.

It does become a dilemma ... get the goodies (and experience points) NOW and face the wraith of the gunrunners in several different sectors or pussyfoot around them for now and put off making this decision at a later date? At least the gunrunners are confined to their predesignated sectors and don't roam the countryside like the Queen's soldiers ... or do they?

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Corporal
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67238] Fri, 17 August 2001 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
Loki,
I don't think there is much of a dilemma other than to kill them now and get the experience and goodies or KILL THEM NOW and get the experience and goodies. Either way your chances of not fighting them is pretty slim.

------------------
Never throw rocks at a man who has a machine gun!

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67239] Sat, 18 August 2001 08:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt.Slaughter is currently offline Sgt.Slaughter

 
Messages:7
Registered:July 2001
Location: Berlin, Germany
well, now that we're completely OT Smile

Batman, first of all I'm glad that you didn't take offence in my patch to DL. If you would like to inspect what I've changed, I can mail you the weapons.txt directly.The changes are rather small, but made the game better for me.
The new mod is great news. I have been been thinking about this kind of campaign as well. My concept would be to really make advanced guns a prized commodity, like in JA1. Things like mortarshells and LAWS could be pretty much restricted to solving heavy scenarios like having an MG-nest over an area of water and such. I think you could very well lower the damage by about 1 or 2 points on every gun. The thing is that the enemies never wear something like a strikervest=kevlar-leather unless scripted, and damage 31 is quite heavy for a simple rifle. I've lowered the average FA-MAS to 29 in my patch of DL and it plays very well now, actually reqires me to burst more often as headshots become less effective. I would have given this type of gun even less damage in a balanced mod. I have to say that I enjoy JA most when it forces me to take hard decisions, and a good example is the beginning of UB with its shortage of good guns. I would have really liked to see the tech buildup spread over 30 sectors, not just 3. But the fact is that you throw away fun guns like the Calico machinegun once something better becomes available.
Advanced ammo and attachments should be made just as rare. A laserpointer ought to be a rare item, because it is so important to bursting. As with UV goggles, there should not be more than 2 or 3 in the whole game. Well, my ideas for a mod/campaign are along these lines. Do they sound sensible?

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67240] Sat, 18 August 2001 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Grifman is currently offline Grifman

 
Messages:5
Registered:December 2000
First off, I'm loving the mod - brought back new life to an old loved favorite. But I'll second the idea on the guns being too deadly - and I think this hurts the balance - and I'll tell you why.

When I first started playing and saw the increased damage that was being dished out (in comparison to the original), I thought, "Oh, no, alot of reloading and taking time to heal ahead of me." But it doesn't work that way. Most of the time, a good experienced player will get in the first shots against the enemy. And since the weapons do more damage, it's usually a kill by the first round. Lower damage weapons would at least give the enemy one round to return fire (with admittedly less damage from his end) but at least he'd get a chance.

Yeah, when the bad guys can get off a first shot, it can be bad - but it just doesn't happen often.

Nevertheless, again I want to say, GREAT GAME, and THANKS!

Grifman

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67241] Sun, 19 August 2001 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgt.Slaughter is currently offline Sgt.Slaughter

 
Messages:7
Registered:July 2001
Location: Berlin, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by Grifman:

Nevertheless, again I want to say, GREAT GAME, and THANKS!


Oh yes, I forgot that. Thanks a million times for all the work and all the fun it produced!

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67242] Sun, 19 August 2001 23:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Col Leo Kelly is currently offline Col Leo Kelly

 
Messages:39
Registered:August 2001
Location: Wherever AIM sends me
Sgt. Slaughter,

Can't really agree with you that laser sights should be rare items. If we want to have a semi-realistic game, the items that are widely available in real life should be available in the game. The cost of lasers has come down so much, any gun owner can afford one. And the new OICW in testing by H&K has one built-in to every weapon.

Agree about the UV goggles though. Night attacks are just too unbalanced with them. I had 6 mercs with 90+ marksmanship, UV goggles and 50 cal Barrett sniper rifles. It was fun but not much of a challenge.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67243] Tue, 21 August 2001 03:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
What I do now to balance things a bit in Night Ops is I stealth my ass off. I don't shoot first anymore. I patiently try to sneak around enemies so that I can either ghost them quietly with a knife or a silenced weapon. I started to use ONLY handguns and smg's as silenced weapons.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67244] Fri, 14 September 2001 11:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psych0midget is currently offline psych0midget
Messages:2
Registered:September 2001
Back to the original topic:

The first sector of gun runners is always the easy one. Fire off a round and let em crowd around you. Get your team in a good spread and be confident you can take them ALL out in one turn. I have a team of 8, each with a high powered weapon with HP ammo, and another weapon with AP ammo.

theres a bit of trial and error, so save often, but dont save over the one before you took on gunrunners. use each merc, and hopefully the GR are close by, and get a head shot on each GR without any more aiming effort. (lone eagles work) if you use HP ammo, theres a good chance youll blow some heads in on 7ap shot. some will not die with an HP round, so reload and try 2 ap shots to the head. i was able to take out 2 gunrunners with each merc, and my custom got 3. of course theres a few that dont come to you when you fire a round, so hunt them down, but the bulk of the manpower was taken out in one turn.

As for not confronting them, you can still get quite a few items. make sure no one sees you. Best method, move all mercs out of view of the merc thats gonna take item. if you dont see ANY GR's in his line of sight, go for it. ones that are there, you can move them one square at a time until they are out of sight (force move) doesnt work all the time tho.

i suggest you take em out early, the added firepower is good.

As for night ops, my method is to get cover, fire a shot and wait for them to come. throw a lot of breaklights in their direction and pick off some heads.

As for the realism.... i dont see real life soldiers complaining about 1 hit kills with the barret. they dont ask for weaker weapons for a better time in combat. you choose what you wanna use. but as far as realism goes, i have to say, most guns are '1 hit kill'. wheres the arguement?

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Civilian
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67245] Fri, 14 September 2001 13:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rude Dog is currently offline Rude Dog

 
Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy
psyc0, I find myself not using the breaklights anymore. It seems as though, once you toss them, the enemy starts trying to flank the position. I realized this and started throwing them in such a manner as to create a maximum kill zone in the darkness between the flares. Try it and tell me if I'm just insane!

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Master Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67246] Fri, 14 September 2001 16:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
psych0midget is currently offline psych0midget
Messages:2
Registered:September 2001
ive noticed the same thing actually. Obviously, even AI should avoid being in bright light covered by darkness at all sides, so they tend to skirt around the light and end up flanking you or you losing an interrupt since your focus is on the light.

There are ways to combat this, of course. easy way would be to throw another light where the opponents would be passing to avoid the first. I leave a goot 10 tiles away from me and the edge of the first light, then throw 2 more with the epicenter of the light at about 15 tiles or less away from the previous. If you cant see em, blanket the place in light. I usually carry 3 per merc, so its no problem..

Another method i like is to use a spotter merc. Sahdow works best for apparent reasons, but my custom merc at level 10 with night ops and stealth skills (of course the 100 agility helps) -no i dont cheat- with camo on prone at an angle away from the initial group. throw the flare and keep the merc out of the light. As people skirt around, use the spotter merc as guides for the others. I love shooting at targets i cant see, i always seem to get a point of marksmanship with the young mercs. when all is clear and only a few remain, the spotter can compromise position and take a kill before relocating.

Ive also taken out many a GR with dynamite traps. Set up a few with each at a different frequency all in a line in front of the group. use spotters on prone if you must. Shoot off a round and wait till they come looking, chuck a breaklight and use the dynamite to your advantage. well placed traps just outside your light's range will nail quite a few. Also, teh spotter, ive noticed, will be able to sneak in a shot or 2 if the final shots of your turn come from the big group. have one merc ready at the remote det's controls.

Is this all old news? i hope im not ranting about stuff everyone knows.

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Civilian
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67247] Fri, 09 July 2004 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Olim is currently offline Olim

 
Messages:14
Registered:July 2004
Location: USA
I find that odd, because the same thing happened to me. I attacked the cambria sectorthat has the bank at night (I almost exclusively attack at night) and the gunrunners attacked me after about 2 turns. I killed them all (they were way tougher than the redshirts, had good armor) and then took the rest of cambria. That didn't make any other GR squares hostile, though. The one next to drassen airport and the one that used to be hicks are still neutral during the day.

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Private
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67248] Tue, 25 January 2005 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zango is currently offline zango

 
Messages:128
Registered:January 2005
Location: India
Quote:
Originally posted by Rude Dog:
In all reality, I HATE FPS's. I have played JA2 about 9,000,000 times with different squads, tactics and time frames. I've done the same thing with JA2DL. I found that the most fun I've had with it is when I go in ALONE on Expert. I kill everything I can, including the Rebels, and only hire someone to train militia so I don't lose the mines and I have a Base Camp to dump and replenish supplies. I have no problem telling you that I have beefed up my weapons in these forays so that I have a lower AP cost. I don't change the damage stats though. I like to kill! In the current game I have killed off the Rebels and hired Flo and Biff to come train militia. When I sent them downstairs in A10 Biff got roached by the repawned non-comms that hide in the corner of the room. Oh well I guess my first time using him was short lived! Flo has improved rather quickly by shooting and punching her way through the rest of the civilians down there. I have even gotten some Steyr Scouts at the SAM site nearby to bolster my tiny force. Downside is that I am only at 17% loyalty in Drassen, so militia will have to wait! I don't think I'll hire anyone else until I absolutely HAVE to!
Am I rambling?
I don't think you were rambling - but sure hope you were kidding - going it alone???? hell there have been times in the orig. JA2 - where a team comprising Gus/IMP/Igor + Shank&Maddog couldn't do much to a group of 24 redshirts (sector north of estoni - 1 sector off of Cambria). And you do it alone? Zango *Bows* Very Happy

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Sergeant
Re: Gunrunners attacked me! SPOILER![message #67249] Tue, 25 January 2005 19:40 Go to previous message
Aecho is currently offline Aecho

 
Messages:261
Registered:August 2003
Location: The Netherlands, Europe
@Olim

I did that during daytime, captured the sector, trained militia to lightblue. Then, expecting a counterattack from a massive enemy patrol in the next sector i went to the in-game screen to move my mercs into defensive positions. That was during nighttime. The gunrunners went hostile immediately, wounded several of my mercs, then my militia got an interupt and they started to clean house. I would have been slaughtered without them. Gunrunners do become better armed and armored as you proceed in the game indeed.

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Master Sergeant
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