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Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #153763] Mon, 20 August 2007 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Nice video. Just the same, but a bit "scientized", and in still pictures, is on my worktable. Wait, please...

All looks true, exept for angles! The (near_to_)true isometry on digitized plane of finite (!!!) dimentions must have "legs/cathets" in relation X/Y=7/4.

More realistic pictures can be made in vector environment, like FreeHand, Illustrator, Inkscape, Canvas (!), and even in MS Word (the easiest tool to print isometric grid template)!!!

In JA2 - no second floor - just optical tricks and restrictions (by engine and game phisics).

But a real staircase - it's true, really possible, with minor code modification. In a few words - a control of nearby JSD must be added, when engine start "climb_on_roof" action. We simply add "stairwalk" animation (can be easily made from some sets in anims.slf), and if the engine find "stair_JSD" next to "human_body", it play the alternative animation.

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 16:32] by Moderator

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #153764] Mon, 20 August 2007 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

One question, sir!

What do You think about shadows in JA2? Cf. the shadows generation pictures in the site You kindly posted - they "drop" to the NE, so the sun is in SW!!! All's right here.

But in JA - all's "back to front"! Or such shadows are true in the South Hemisphere (never been southward of equator)?

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 16:40] by Moderator

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #153780] Mon, 20 August 2007 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1017
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
They are the right shadows for Southern Hemisphere; however they are also the default shadows all architects use on isometric views; it's a draughting convention if you like.

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #153832] Mon, 20 August 2007 23:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Many Thanks! Feeled it!!! Even have made an astronomic geosolar model with geoid axe inclination - just to understand why our mod "Banana Hell" will never be finished - it was geographically placed in the northern "Cariba" - Northern Hemisphere. Shadows were wrong, so mod is sunk (sinked, bah, foutu, pour tout dire, na!)

So, we are in South Hemisphere, but we can still add staircases and second floors (optically faked!) - engine modification provided.

Dechets philosophiques...
Ha! A good gift for my birthday! Now drill (?!) sergeant! Strange - captain would be true, but sergeant? Officer should make a "pit of sheet(yes!)" to become sergeant!

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2007 23:30] by Moderator

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #154009] Wed, 22 August 2007 03:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Sir! M'sieur Le Scorpion!

Checked multilevel cliffs! They works! All levels are accessible(s?) thru caves+teleports!

Cf. http://s1.imgdb.ru/2007-08/22/3lvl-mn-png_b4yabpy9.png

Look at upper right cliff!

Was unable to find enemies when entering the sector, but they arrived some time later.

A vous de jouer!!!

Tested in game - there are two "bugs" - the "man" and "teleport arrow" parts of the cursor are 2.5 tiles below the cursor square. It seems these two are easy to correct in code. I don't checked firing from second to third level, as there was no enemies on it.

As ou predicted, after two teleports enemies are redistributed, but it is like in real - they try to find You on all levels!

[Updated on: Sat, 25 August 2007 04:31] by Moderator

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #155607] Mon, 03 September 2007 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
enemy redistribution isn't all that bad as long as you keep their positions more or less in such a way that the player doesn't have to teleport back and forth too many times. if you work with priority placements and round point patrols, you may achieve it that the player doesn't have to go back and forth.

night operations or rain in 1.13 could however make it tricky... more teleporting required.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159565] Thu, 27 September 2007 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
here are the cyrillic lines

CNC gun, can you explain to me what is wrong in which place and how "badly" wrong? (is it worth replacing it?)

here is the first screenshot http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2086/administrationwf4.jpg


Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159568] Thu, 27 September 2007 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
here's the next

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7152/entrancedangerob1.jpg


the signs are supposed to say "entrance" (where there is an open space between the walls)

and "danger" for the room in which the explosive barrells are located
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159569] Thu, 27 September 2007 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
next
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/6940/entrancemagasinoq4.jpg

the signs are supposed to say "entrance" and "warehouse" or "store" i don't remember... Wink


Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159570] Thu, 27 September 2007 23:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
next

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5241/privatewk3.jpg


the sign is supposed to say "private" and means that somebody's stuff/ belongings are stored in the room behind the sign
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159706] Fri, 28 September 2007 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Please look the WW2 thread - forgot to switch thread!

In order the pictures are

1. Администрация - any official thing must be a black or blue tile (10x16 ratio - golden partition), only one game tile or wall width. State or Republic Armoiries - obligatory.
If You want something BIG and LONG - it may be the enterprise (kolkhoze) name with logo - like "Usine Horloger OMEGA".

2. If You like the ВХОД - маке it more real, say ВХОД по ПРОПУСКАМ (Permission only Entrance).
And, pour l'amour du Dieux, remove those Stars - Only on gates, in geometrical centre.

2.1 Опасность - have You ever seen a "Danger!" on the side wall? What kind of danger? "Don't piss - electrical shock?"
Like a joke - make a "Не подходи - рухнет!" (Don't approach - will fall!)

3. Магазин means STORE or SHOP. And always near the shop (store) entrance, You know...

3.1 Second ВХОД - маке it ПРЕДЪЯВИ ПРОПУСК (Show Pass).
And reduce the star dimensions.
((Joke) Or, instead, Shall change my sign. to "25 chars x 25 lines Swizer Kreuz"! (Joke))

Think You were and are "sous les drapeaux". Have You ever seen a white cross on a sentinel box?

4. Приватно was explained in WW2 thread.

[Updated on: Sat, 29 September 2007 09:31] by Moderator

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159731] Fri, 28 September 2007 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MAn

 
Messages:9
Registered:June 2007
Location: Kharkov-city, USSR
Scorpion, please, don`t take offence at us. You are cool modder, really Smile
But why do you consider there are red stars everywhere in Russian Federation (joke Wink just it`s right in essence).
- first screen: АДМИНИСТРАЦИЯ - o.k. (wrong, but for the game - o.k.)
- second: ВХОД - o.k. (in that case - ok, because there`s the door close to gateway)
ОПАСНОСТЬ - ok, all is right
- third: ВХОД - wrong, because... it`s hard for me to explain (bad english), maybe CNC_gun? Although... for the game... it`s enough suitable. To take out the star and - o.k. Actually ВЪЕЗД is well. Ah! Here`s simple explanation: if may walk through then ВХОД; if may drive through then ВЪЕЗД.
(Правильно, дядь Саша? ведь есть же вход на территорию зоопарка или заповедника?)
МАГАЗИН - ok, actually now our stores very often have signs supermarket/minimarket/marketstore/megastore (торгаши поганые). Nevertheless: supermarket - УНИВЕРМАГ or УНИВЕРСАМ, foodstore - ПРОДУКТЫ or ГАСТРОНОМ, liquor store - ВИНО-ВОДКА, and many others... what need? Marketplace - РЫНОК or БАЗАР (bazar).
- fourth: ПРИВАТНО - such caption aren`t used anywhere in our countries, CNC is quite right (in addition, probably this is grammatical mistake because ПРИВАТНО in english - "privetly", adverb. But in Russian more often speak "частным образом" or "в частном порядке" instead of "приватно").

These are all russian captions in your mod?
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159733] Fri, 28 September 2007 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MAn

 
Messages:9
Registered:June 2007
Location: Kharkov-city, USSR
Sorry, i was typing when CNC_gun had posted.
Ломолом, извини, пока соображал как по-английски писать... Не успел прочитать твоё сообщение.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159791] Sat, 29 September 2007 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
so, those stars... they have been removed in russian federation? does only the army still use them? the problem is, those stars are very characteristic for how some of my potential players imagine signs in eastern europe to look like. I agree that the 5-edged star on that stupid isometric entrance sign is kind of wrong. I really might consider removing that.

CNC_gun:

ВХОД по ПРОПУСКАМ would be superb i guess, just look at how small the sign is... i'd never bring this long caption onto such a small sign. Look how many tiles (4? or even 6?) administratija requires (and it is still not really readable)

Danger on the side wall means the guy who owns this big building does not want you to enter his rooms without permission. it's his subtle way of telling "keep the hell out"
(plus it can be used almost everywhere where trigger-generated electrical shocks (yes, they exist in ja2 RR) or explosions or gas or everything can happen. I find "danger" to be one of the most versatile signs to put in a game. The exclamation mark and the red color should help drawing interest.

magasin is shop or store.. that's fine. My picturesque little villages don't have supermarkets yet, plus the "store" is short enough to fit onto the 1-tile (or is it 2) sign.
see the mod doesn't have to play in 2010. It might be set in 1995 or such...

bazar would probably be a good one for certain maps too. that's short enough and still ok...

so, what would be a good sign to replace "privately" then? should be about the same lenght and be possible to use in same circumstances. suggestions?

no, these aren't all captions, i think there are some more somewhere in the screens...


i don't take offence. I'm glad you guys care about those details. Just hope you guys won't take offence either if there are many more details that don't fit. remember it's a ja2 mod and not google earth south russia and caucasus area (this is a joke too...) Wink

also, changing certain signs will require to do a lot of stupid annoying work and i don't know how likely i will undertake major changes to them.

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159804] Sat, 29 September 2007 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MAn

 
Messages:9
Registered:June 2007
Location: Kharkov-city, USSR
the scorpion
so, those stars... they have been removed in russian federation? does only the army still use them? the problem is, those stars are very characteristic for how some of my potential players imagine signs in eastern europe to look like. I agree that the 5-edged star on that stupid isometric entrance sign is kind of wrong. I really might consider removing that.


Well, i think you are quite right. The red star is universal symbol in our countries - military, historical, political etc. symbol. So it`s enough suitable for the game. But not everywhere Smile you see.


Quote:

i don't take offence. I'm glad you guys care about those details. Just hope you guys won't take offence either if there are many more details that don't fit. remember it's a ja2 mod and not google earth south russia and caucasus area (this is a joke too...) Wink

Excellent!
Quote:

also, changing certain signs will require to do a lot of stupid annoying work and i don't know how likely i will undertake major changes to them.

How do you look at help from somebody else... ?
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159812] Sat, 29 September 2007 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
i think i have the red star only on this "entrance" sign and on that little guardhouse thing...

... oh, on one of the ships i think i also have one, too.

they often accompany each other. But i don't have it on vehicles, and when the player goes further to the south, the signs will change.



i'll appreciate help. Do you remember what i wrote about re-recording characters during public beta? the very same is true for any type of graphics, including of course captions, decals, symbols, etc.
i'm hoping that with the help of the community we can in the long run improve the mod significantly. I mean you surely know which graphic from vanilla ja2 i used to draw that "entrance" sign on. Anybody provides me a better sign that still fits the purpose and i see that i insert it correctly into all the tilesets where it's used.

But note that whenever i'm in doubt, i tend to prefer my own stuff Wink
That's very difficult for others to work with me, so unless their stuff is really top notch, i'll be hesitating to trash my own work.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159845] Sat, 29 September 2007 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Just as excuse - i missed Your comments - as per МАГАЗИН - if You meant DEPOT - it must be СКЛАД!!! Always. And it's universal, military or "cereals", and fits everywhere. But, ordinary, signboards were and are fitted on the front wall, near the ВХОД (entrance).

Once more about stars... We never haven't have so many stars like others, and it was something Sacral, Spiritual (if You want) in those Red Stars, so they never been putted everywhere anybody wanted.
And the ones on the screenshots looks caricatural... Hope, this wasn't Your intention.

Till 1970-ties the GOST norm prescribed all signs (like Danger) to be more informative (what kind of Danger) and to be Triangle or Rectangle, yellow with black border.
Prescribing ones were White with Green border (like the most jokemaking "Не влезай - убьет!" - "Don't climb (IN or ON ) - Will Kill!". Oh, i see mr. Gates smile...)

It seems relat. simple to make two universal wall decalcs - a blue vertical rectangle (10x16 ratio), with a yellow-red circle (dot) on top, and a couple of simple white lines.
That will means communal institutions. If You want "tending to independence" Caucasus (one third, in fact), those decalcs would be GREEN with White lines.
The state institutions "decalcs" would be horizontal rectangles with same ratio, but with GOLD text and State Emblem (?).

One more idea - after 1993 it was an "Avalanche of raised standards" - before, it was prohibited to raise any kind of Flag, Banner, (doubly) Standard without official party comittee permission.
So, You can mark the official and army locations with a raised flag of any kind. Hope, You are able to make a four frames animation, or a sti with a pending flag, instead.

Please kindly PM me the textes to be recorded - we shall imagine something, here in Moscow. Can even said, there are two REAL Caucasians ready to "give their voices". They were involved in WW2 mod, as voices of commando members. BTW, served in Army right in the hearth of Caucasus too...


Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159879] Sun, 30 September 2007 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lesh 2

 
Messages:108
Registered:September 2006
Location: Izhevsk, Russia
the scorpion
so, what would be a good sign to replace "privately" then? should be about the same lenght and be possible to use in same circumstances. suggestions?

Actually, I tend to translate "private" as "ЧАСТНАЯ СОБСТВЕННОСТЬ". But it is very long to banner it. There is other variant, but it is even longer: "ПОСТОРОННИМ ВХОД ВОСПРЕЩЁН".

As word "private" indicates, that some object has an owner, so it is possible to make such sign:

OWNER
-----------
zxcvbn <--- the clear text under line isn't needed, several indistinguishable glyphs are sufficient.

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159886] Sun, 30 September 2007 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CNC_gun

 
Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF

Yesterday tried to find at least ONE banner or decalc "ЧАСТНАЯ СОБСТВЕННОСТЬ" or someting like in the northern half of Moscow. (ellipse 30x33 km in plane). No one!

The specific property (sic!) of a "private property" in former USSR is a group of "sheared head" badass guys, in black uniform (light blue-black shirt) for rich ones, or in multicolour sportwear for medium or bandit properties.
And nothing meaning the ownership at all! It's Top Secret up to kill in place if revealed!

Also, there were many cases of imitating State banners on private enterprises...

So, it would be more interesting to add one more "faction" - private guardians. Not cowf...ers like Hixes, but even more angry with all moving around!

And don't forget - "police" was changed to MILITIA early in 1917, and still remain...
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #159998] Mon, 01 October 2007 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1017
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Not a nit-pick but those vehicle sti's could still do with a slight bit of rotation. With Isometric views only the verticle axis should be a constant. Let that be your guide. Send me one and I'll demonstrate the difference. Must be this week as I leave this job (and e-mail address) on 5th Okt.

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #163474] Sat, 03 November 2007 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
well, this was done before and without the 3d models, there's not much you can do to save this bitmaps. But replacement bitmaps would be super :super:


on a very unrelated note, but also linked to our game world, anybody followed the troubles in georgia? their prez is apparently going to postpone the elections and is now facing a lot of pressure from the street...

... the same pressure that allowed him to Coup-d'etat his predecessor. They were showing archive materials, and guess what? Those guys shown in the footage were wearing all-black, coats and stuff Wink

and, of course, demonstrations, with which our fictional RR story begun, have started as well in Georgia. let's hope our stupid little story doesn't come anywhere close to true ;-(
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #166973] Sat, 08 December 2007 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Not sure if this is the right place to post problems with maps but...

D14 has a few issues.

First, although I believe it is supposed to be a part of the town it takes 1hr29min to travel from D13 and back. Not a big deal and something easily fixable in the movementcosts.xml but I was wondering was this somehow intentional?

Also there are about three or four areas in that oddly shaped building I can find no access for. Was this to intentionally confuse players? If so, let me say that I don't find it amusing at all. If there is no good reason for this could you please remove a section of wall tile so each can be accessed?
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #166974] Sat, 08 December 2007 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH

there's triggers that open those doors, but the wire must be cut first plus those areas that are inaccessible don't contain anything so basicly there's nothing to worry about if these rooms are left dark.



Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #166976] Sat, 08 December 2007 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
also, totally unrelated, i get a run-time error trying to run your (tried using beta17 and 24)tabledata files. do you happen to know which one of the files is the problem?

how far would one have to revert to get a game starting?
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #166977] Sat, 08 December 2007 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
My tabledata files?
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #166991] Sat, 08 December 2007 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
eh, sorry, i found out your tabledata files (ww2 mod) weren't the problem ;-D

my bad. nevermind i wasted your time.

i'm trying to set your mod up you see.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167002] Sat, 08 December 2007 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
If you need any help installing or running the WW2 mod send me an e-mail. I'll try to avoid spamming you this time. mAN was able to install without too much problem so I know you shouldn't have any. I believe my tabledata folder will not work with versions 1080 or newer. The problem is with the armous.xml but I can't find what the hell it is. Aggrevating because I am 99% to the point where I can use the xml editor with my mod. This would be sweet.



Back on topic:

Do you plan fix the movementcosts.xml? Is there a good reason the areas of D14 are inaccessible? It seems the fences are being obscured by being on the far side of the building. I feel this to be a desgn flaw and irritating but if there is a good reason...
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167005] Sat, 08 December 2007 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
well i try to set your xml's up in data-ww2 not just dropping them into data or data-1.13 so the installation processes are more sophisticated. Your armours.xml has been at least loaded by beta17 and beta24 so it can't be that dramatic. I have a mess with the items though.

i leave it currently to the player to decide if he wants those 5 minutes or the way it is now. it has never bothered me, as i said, both settings can make sense depending on what one's viewpoint is

the map won't be altered. i see no reason for doing that. Rather have a new map once i get into the mood of mapping again.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167006] Sat, 08 December 2007 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
The xmls go in data 1.13. There is no data ww2.

All of the zips that have (data) in their title goes in the regular data folder, everything else in the data 1.13. I do this for ease of development so I don't have yet another data folder to contend with and since this is an alpha project at the moment. When the mod gets anywhere near a beta I will then make a data ww2 folder but for now can see no point in so doing.

Is there any advantage to having a custom data folder? Can you maybe add all the modded elements from your regular data folder once you have a custom data (I can't see how this could possibly be the case but it would be nice to have all data contained in one folder.

My mod currently runs from the 687. I have experience no bugs unique to my mod when using this .exe. If it runs just as well on Beta17 I would be inclined to use this provided there are no surprises waiting in ambush.


Back on topic:

I don't know what you mean by those extra 5 minutes? I gues I'll gabbi teleport to those areas if my hands are meant to be otherwise tied.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167009] Sat, 08 December 2007 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
these spaces are not for people to enter. these rooms are meant for the water to flow through when the water level of the lake to the north gets to high. Hence they're not accesible as people would drown in there upon opening the doors *sigh*. But you can enter them by cutting through the wirefence and opening the doors Wink



there are many reasons for me to not have your mod drop into my data folder, as it would then inflict problems with the 2-3 other custom mods i have established on the same install of 1.13. That's why i'm setting up this custom data folder. Unfortunately, i'll have to copy some of the default data stuff too as i don't only get a mess with items but also with the inventory buttons and such. Guess i'll try installing one of those inventory mods, that might fix this.

btw if you don't want everybody to have to establish a new ja2 1.13 install exclusively for your mod, i'd suggest you try to establish a custom data folder. I know it's a bit of a mess to work with, but as soon as you go passing your stuff on to others, it might be helpful.

btw your items.xml and your prof.dat, they are alpha as well? because that might explain what happened to my items there...


btw i think i found a bug. the custom heli loadscreen doesn't get loaded from the custom data folder location, only from "data". I ougtha tell one of the coders. well they got other things to do anyway.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167011] Sat, 08 December 2007 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
If there is no way to get the data stuff into the custom folder I will not be doing this anytime soon. I guess I'll just stop releasing the mod to anyone if it is that much of a hassle. The alternative is adressing a bunch of 'bugs' that have nothing to do with my mod but rather someone's version that has several custom data folders, incorrect .ini assignments, etc. = no thanx. It's enough work just getting it done without the extra confusion.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167015] Sat, 08 December 2007 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
for others it's no hassle to have one more install. Just me i'm running low on disk space. it's not a problem of your mod though. and i'd say for the actual development it's easier to work the way you do so no problem.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167070] Sun, 09 December 2007 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
by the way what i wrote to you in one of the mails proved to be wrong. The mines can be moved. I was just too damn lazy before, asking the coders to do this while i could have done it myself when there still was the time.

this means of course, totally new game worlds are possible. I haven't researched the facilities, but i guess they could work in a similar fashion. Man how freakin cool would it be to have the stupid airfields and hospitals moved to different locations. well, these things are probably not going to make it into ja2 RR final release, but for anybody who has an actually *original* mod setting, this could prove invaluable.

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/4453/movedminesgk9.jpg


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1934/minersspawnbh8.jpg


http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/1933/incomegeneratedkt1.jpg


seeing that i could have found out about this and implemented it into less than half a day hurts me bad, as the only serious point of criticism in the developing state of the mod was the similarity to vanilla ja2 in terms of the towns. Looks like i missed it big time there.


anyway, to those of you that are playing the mod, what would you people think if i moved the mines to different sectors, maybe even shift parts of towns? I had done this in ja2 vengeance and a big number of players had problems finding the mines...

maybe i'll have a mod for ja2 RR that moves towns and mines. Just for advanced players who can find the new mining sectors ;-D (in my example it is still very easy to find the new sectors, but i can move them anywhere, so...)

what i haven't found yet is where to edit the money output of the mines. this seems to be stored elsewhere. I'll have a look. If this works, i might even be able to reactivate san mona mine... that'd be awesome...
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167106] Sun, 09 December 2007 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Very cool!

I had a feeling this could be done but was worried that it might spawn additional bugs and break the incredibly flimsy quest structure.

I found another clue to why moving the Martha/Joey quest was not working when looking in Batman's NPC Editor (not the beta). In Joey's script it says something like

Activated if npc is within 5 tiles of npc109 and in sector G8

Sector g8!!!??????????

Where else would he be unless you could somehow magically move Martha ingame. It is qualifyers like this that throw additional roadblocks when trying to work with a quest. Not only must Joey be 5 tiles from Martha but it seems hardcoded that he must also be in G8.

What is weird about this is a long time ago I got this quest to work in a different sector just by using the map editor and proedit. Perhaps G8 just refers to the sector you assign for Martha and maybe you must also assign her to the new town to get it to work?

I really can't remember how I did it because I had bigger fish to fry back then. But anyway I am trying to change that qualifyer to Joey is EPC and just see how that works. Now that I know how to move the Fatima quest the only thing holding this first series up is setting the clue that will let you find where fatima is.

Back on topic


I don't think it is too late to change your towns mines and airports but might be of great value to first learn if all the quests are working in these sectors before moving these things. The reason being I would be surprised if moving such things did not break certain quests but certainly this would be valuable data for future mods.
I think I will start mapping without reguards for existing towns because I am to the point where I am seriously thinking of replacing all quests with ones that use simpler triggers like item exchanges or maybe a few other things so that it doesn't get too repetitive.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167108] Sun, 09 December 2007 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
yes. the sector g8 thing.

in the case of maria, this works. Because maria and angel's dialogue is only activated if maria is EPC and inside leathershop.

using maria is EPC and then talking to angel did it there (once you change that map in a noticeable way, the game does not seem to recognise the leathershop anymore)

so it might work the same way using joey/ martha. She might not start talking herself, but once you talked to her (and joey is epc), she might use the lines in question.



have a look at this

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/7417/pankisiminebw7.jpg



i can now have mining income anywhere on the map, associated to any Town in cities.xml and triggered by characters else than the head miners. Btw this is the formerly dry san mona mine moved to and associated with my custom town pankisi.

the limit is of course the 6 existing mines. but that's at least one more than vanilla ja2 ;-D

This oughta been my first step when trying to build new custom quests. I think i'll do some experimenting with my new head miner and cause him to start/ stop funding us and we'll see what implications this can give us for quasi-missionbased modding scenarios.

i see different factions paying us as long as we act as they want and stop paying us if we support others etc. Now if only factions were to be handled in an acceptable way... *sigh*

I might actually use this part of the new feature as i have it now but leave the normal old maps in place. For you it means you can place at least the mines in realistic mode pretty much anywhere (sci-fi mode, the creps, we'd have to test what happens there)

Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #167216] Tue, 11 December 2007 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Not sure if it is allowed to post such offtopicness, but I really must say this mod looks very cool.From what I read/see, it is interesting to check the good ol soviet atmosphere and loads of weapons to use.My congratulaions to the creators.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #170319] Thu, 10 January 2008 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
thanks, MikeThePro

hope you've encountered and recruited Mike? (btw i have repliad to your posting a long time ago but it has dissapeared during some routine maintainence or whatever)


khor1255

i have some information for you about kingpin's assassins:

it looks like them turning hostile is hardcoded, plus it happens more than just once! BIG Problem here. I forced Jim to lower his gun, end combat and become friendly (after he killed one of my mercs) then he runs away, wandering the map but at a certain point he turned hostile again.

key element seems to be turn based versus realtime. In turnbased, the assassins behave just like any civilian, but in real time, they seem to wander the maps looking for the player's party and turn hostile. The turning hostile itself is hardcoded, the history log line and any speeches however are apparently in the script.

interestingly, if you force jim to lower the gun but keep the game turn based, we won't attack anymore. However, since he's still hostile, this helps little.

i'm unsure as to whether they actually attack enemies too. There's a function that makes NPC's attack players as well as enemies. would have to test that.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #170324] Thu, 10 January 2008 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Good to know.

What then is the exception with Slay? Is it something just hacked in or have you heard of any code pertaining specifically to him?

It would be great to have this stuff externalised (an NPC.xml) but just knowing what you can and cannot do saves hours of unfruitful experimentation.
After all, if it is hardcoded it's usually a dead end.

I've backed away from npc scripting yet again (that stuff hurts my brain). Seriously, I was hoping there would be some rhyme or reason to it but with the unknown NPC actions around every corner it becomes a real guessing game as to what to do.

I haven't given up but I was starting to feel momentum slip again so I went back to mapping to get the wheels rolling. I've made and adapted a few cool tiles and banged out a few maps (one being D5 which was a real bitch) just to try to maintain some foreward motion in this dusty old project of mine.

Thanx for the tip.
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #170326] Thu, 10 January 2008 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
yeah i was kind of afraid you'd get stuck in dead ends there.

plus it was something i needed to research. Might have another go at it one day.

what do you mean about slay? does he turn hostile and then back friendly again? pablo does so as well if you beat him up, but i think pablo has a specfic trigger for this, but i'd have to test pablo (i never let things get stolen so i haven't beaten him up since i had to test this feature in ja2 rr development)

so i can imagine that turning normal hostile NPC's friendly under certain conditions is doable, but i think in cases where their hostility is hardcoded or faction-based, they'd probably keep turning hostile. This would probably also apply to Mike ;-/
Re: Game world and mapmaking[message #170331] Thu, 10 January 2008 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1820
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
About Slay I meant the infamous Hireable Slay patch. I assume this is a hack but if so why only Slay?


I was wondering if you had ever heard of any code that is specific to Slay and thus makes him a better one for the patch than another outlaw?

Anyway, reading back I noticed you said that changing c6 breaks the Angel/Maria quest.

This is really weird because I have totally changed that map (I think I even moved Angel but know for sure I totally redid the building he is in) and the quest works all the way up to the point where I give the little twink the deed.
There is something missing in c5 (a map I also completely changed although I left the npcs on their exact grids just to be on the safe side) in the building Kyle is in. It is a door or chest or cabinet he needs to unlock or something to get his money out.

The quest works up until I hand him the deed after which he just says his bit and walks away.


It is the sort of inconsistancies that make a quest work one time while breaking it another that make this the most difficult. If I had a lot more time and a compiler I'd actually try to get to the bottom of some of this. Looking in the code actually is helpful sometimes in sorting out such mysteries but I have to admit that I have not done that in months.

I have gone back to just making a map on top of the existing map structure and I think this is a bad mistake. I'll end up getting attached to the sectors I make and be reluctant to change them even when I know how to do it without breaking quests. I think a good descision a long time ago would have been to scrap just about every quest but I really want to keep a lot of them but just change the actual rewards and elements they provide.

A good thing to do with some of them (even the broken ones) would be to change the end of quest dialouge the npc says to something that reveals a crucial clue to another quest or a town or even something as simple as a weapons cashe. Sure, the player might find this on his own but doing the quest would provide him a shortcut.

Anyway, I have been mapping on top of the regular sectors. I have successfully moved a very crucial town and would really like to move the airport. My next town will be in a different location than the default town it represents. I am going to try to achieve this using the cities.xml to assign it's 'properties' after I build my map on top of the existing sector I am going to move by renaming.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. I've found it much better to wipe out all structure and feature from a sector I am replacing (except maybe important chests etc.) than build my map than rename it to the place I want it rather than trying to build from the ground up than add in all the npc routines and features, items etc.

For some reason even erasing and replacing all the bloodcats in a bloodcat sector can cause weirdness.

boy do I wish there were more mapping xmls.
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