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in case anybody is worrying...[message #127371] Fri, 01 September 2006 20:47 Go to next message
the scorpion

 
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...about my comments in the 1.13 section.

this doesn't really apply to the progress of ja2 rr. We're determined to carry it through against all odds and problems. The somewhat harsh critizism from my side in the 1.13 feature request forum is part of another function of mine, that is support of the 1.13 team and quality control. It has little to nothing to do with this project, it is entriely about preserving actual moddability of the 1.13 project.

you know, i've been with the project from (almost) the beginning and i was always looking forward to actual mods for this. but each modmaker would tell me "screw you and 1.13, i use ja2 1.02 as a base" when i suggested to make their mods compatible.
so what i rally for in the 1.13 sections is to request the things modmakers tell me lack in 1.13 and to troubleshoot the things that are undesirable in 1.13. because i want to play 1.13 mods, the standard campaign, i've seen enough of it.
So in case my statements there were alienating to anybody, let me assure that it's not going to hinder process on ja2 rr and contructive discussion in this part of the forum

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127372] Fri, 01 September 2006 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbonar is currently offline dbonar

 
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For what it is worth I was never worried. You're always kept the two personas apart. Here you are planning a specific mod. There you are arrogantly and ruthlessly crushing evil.

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Corporal
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127373] Sat, 02 September 2006 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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oh Marcus, you've found the way here. In case you want us to finish our little discussion where we were distracted, feel free to do so. I'm sorry i can't do serious discussion about things that aren't really my business anymore. Plus it indeed reads like i'm patronising the actual developers, what would upset any upright citizen i guess.

sometimes people exaggerate what they write when angered. luckily muggsy and kaiden are very smart, layed back people so they won't be harsh on me (i think)

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127374] Sat, 02 September 2006 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AZAZEL is currently offline AZAZEL

 
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Registered:February 2004
Mhm, well, I was worried.
And he's not evil, he's as constructive as he can.Maybe he joined the effort from the beginning to "reform the system from the inside";
and he certainly does everything he can to make a modder's voice be heard.
"Listened to" is another thing...
One cannot leave those tech-heads by themselves one second, or they'll destroy the world. Razz
Wink


See,if I start bitching about everything I don't like in 1.13 at the moment, it could take me longer than...

The perspectives that the 1.13 coding team has opened are so enormously tempting that every last one of the modders and players want the platform done...yesterday.

Personally, I cannot blame them for starting(after the AI improvement) with the most "commercial" and easy thing possible:guns.
Had they started with strategic externalisations, not guns, they'd have much less support and attention from players.
Well, maybe also less pressure and requests from gun nerds(said it!) Smile
IMO, some crap will never be "realistic" no matter how talented or hard-working the coders could be, so it's just waisted time and effort for me.

The "game world costumising" is the priority as far as some of us are concerned.Will wait.

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First Sergeant
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127375] Fri, 08 September 2006 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbonar is currently offline dbonar

 
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Registered:June 2006
Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:
oh Marcus, you've found the way here. In case you want us to finish our little discussion where we were distracted, feel free to do so. I'm sorry i can't do serious discussion about things that aren't really my business anymore. Plus it indeed reads like i'm patronising the actual developers, what would upset any upright citizen i guess.
Due to logging in on a different computer I came across this marked as new. So I ended up reading it again. Just like last weekend I can't make heads or tails of it. I realize that since I do not want to play insane mode with only the starting weaponry and ammo stolen from the dead I'm clearly of very limited intelligence and skill but your forum isn't hard to find. I've been a regular visitor for as long as I have known about 1.13.

Actually I thought our discussion reached a fairly
clear end point. I agree that moderators have the ability to request a locking feature. I still do not see the point in locking most options but oh well. Its clearly a personality issue. not a logical one so I had basically given upon any serious logical discussion.

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Corporal
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127376] Fri, 08 September 2006 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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no, the part of the forum isn't hard to find, but it's less frequently visited than other parts, that's why i usually greet the few people posting here. But that's a personality issue too

yeah. giving up logical discussion. this sounds very familiar. everybody does...

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127377] Sat, 09 September 2006 04:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbonar is currently offline dbonar

 
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Registered:June 2006
Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:
no, the part of the forum isn't hard to find, but it's less frequently visited than other parts, that's why i usually greet the few people posting here. But that's a personality issue too

yeah. giving up logical discussion. this sounds very familiar. everybody does...
You were honest in the other thread so I'll be honest here. You comment about my finding my way to this portion of the forum and your comment about giving up logical discussion both come across as patronizing. As does your attitude that your idea of where 1.13 should go is the only important idea. I might be willing to discuss things if I felt that it would be a real discussion but two patronizing posts in a row seems to doom things from the start.

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Corporal
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127378] Sat, 09 September 2006 06:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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no. the part about finding the way in this forum is something i write very often. you may find such remarks in various other threads in here to various other people. Has nothing to do with patronizing, has to do with the small number of threads and postings in here.
plus i would greet some of the prople here if it's their first time posting in this section of the forum becasue i like contributions (obviiously)

and the remark about quiting logical discusion came from you first. I'm not to blame if such remarks get interpretet in a way you didn't wanted them to say.

This is again another portion of the forum. There is no room here for malicious intent here. I don't think we're doomed at all.

getting to your point:
i think most people get me wrong when they interprete my postings in the above way ("only my ideas about 1.13 are right"). What i usually refer to are options for modmakers. i don't know what their mods could look like, i don't know who they are, but i know that they are not very well represetned in the 1.13 discussion forums. But having years of experience modding ja2, i can say from past experience which features are important and good for most of us modmakers (there are many features in 1.13 that were used before. enemies climbing on roof, longer vision range using scopes, peripheral vision, all kinds of balance tweaks)and which features are rather improbable the coders will even look at them.
Very problematic are features which primary use is to provide advanatges to the requester's style of playing. Other problematic stuff ar eideas that aren't thought through and that can break the game or havea very negative impact on it's balance. And then there's lots of stuff that simply doesn't qualify as a feature request.
My point is that modmakers simply have a knowledge and experience advantage and will thus most probably not be interested in a vast array of player-oriented features that will cause their balance all kinds of problems.

i let the coding team know that there are doubts about certain features in certain situations. Cuz if i don't, we end up with buggy featurs or stuff modmakers complain about. I try to be a bit of a lobby for the actual modmaking. What i represent is not my opinion, it's rather what would pass as a safe baseline consensuous of many modmakers and developers i have talked to since the beginning of the 1.13 project. I sometimes use very direct words to let the people know something about their request was "bad" or "dumb". i hope they would figure. Some don't figure, and it may end up in a flame war.

that are risks i'm taking for bringing the cause forward. not only my cause. The whole 1.13 project, and the chance of actually getting some mods working.

one of the main issues people get me wrong about is "locking or disabling" features. Muggsy figured very fast that this would give the modmakers so much more room for their ideas and balancings. But many people just misunderstood this. Nobody is going to lock away 1.13. Nobody is disabling bobby rays in 1.13
what some modmakers need for their games to work properly is the possibility to set certain values to fix dimensions. The disabling of ini options actually means more potential features rather than a restriction. I think some people are unaware of this and are scared we'll be messing up their game. And at that point, there was no chance talking to them anymore.
important: i'm not planning to lock away anybodies options in ja2 1.13
i'm planning to make a mod for 1.13 which will have its own custom data folder and work completely without messing up data-1.13 folder. If i will need the chance to lock some values in the ini or xml files will be determinded in betatesting.
everything i request to be "lockable" or such should be left to each modmaker wether to lock or not. So most mods won't have any locking. it would only be used by those who are planning on a very detailed and special balance (think of somebody making a one man only mod, you can't have 6 AE's if you're making such a mod. and it staill can be fun!)
My arrogant way of putting these things comes from the lack of possibilities to truly and fully dicuss such issues with people who have never worked on a mod. There are simply differences. There is no point arguing complicated coding issues with me since i can't judge them. so i won't, leaving that to coders. But once it's about modmaking, there's little point discussing these things in detail and explaining all the basic stuff people don't know.

so if their request is as dumb as "me want stat xy raised" or "me want to shoot rockets to moon and back to hit enemy with plasma gun from moon" i do feel i have a certain right to tell them in a very direct way that they shouldn't be too optimistic in these things. And for most pschlogically normal beings, this pissing-off tactic works okay. Other will react with stubborn repetition of their points or by outright flaming. that is the risky side of the tactic. But in the past, we've been to generous to such requests and have messed up some stuff.

what would you think is a better tactic? i lack valid alternatives. Leaving the people alone with their request as suggested by some othe rforum mebers is what most modmakers used to do, and the dev team is still trying to fix the consequences of that. Since i'm already working on a 1.13 based mod, there's a need for me to keep 1.13 workable as a modmaking engine. And which additions or possibly, limitations of existing fetures will be useful or have priority is something nobody can judge. I try to bring in modmaking experience, testing, playerside feedback (there have been many features i wouldn't have wanted but supported them due to popular request) to help filtering and selecting. There were serious defect when we did it the nice way, so now i try the ugly way, maybe i'll find a better solution in the future. But i won't pay attention to outright bashing. I have always good reasons to judge new features, and unless other people can at least name a few decent reasons for their features i will openly utter doubts and critizsim, since constructive critizism is one of the major points in quality control.
and as long as i'm so committed to the project and no better alternative is found, i will continue to handle it that way. harsh critizism will cause reactions. If good points stand behind features, they will be able to argue those points and thus deliver more info to judge it (for the coding team). If people can't argue any points for their featue but "i'd like to have it" or "it would be cool" then the coders will probably not even bother.

i have possibly uttered more requests in the request forums than anybody. I always tried to provide all reasons for and even against them. And everybody had the chance to utter critizism. I shoudl also be allowed to utter critizism. My opinion should not be worth less than any other.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127379] Sat, 09 September 2006 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dbonar is currently offline dbonar

 
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Registered:June 2006
Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:
no. the part about finding the way in this forum is something i write very often. you may find such remarks in various other threads in here to various other people. Has nothing to do with patronizing, has to do with the small number of threads and postings in here.
You might remove the "oh" at the beginning then. Starting out with just the name changes the whole tone.

Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:

one of the main issues people get me wrong about is "locking or disabling" features. Muggsy figured very fast that this would give the modmakers so much more room for their ideas and balancings. But many people just misunderstood this. Nobody is going to lock away 1.13. Nobody is disabling bobby rays in 1.13
what some modmakers need for their games to work properly is the possibility to set certain values to fix dimensions. The disabling of ini options actually means more potential features rather than a restriction. I think some people are unaware of this and are scared we'll be messing up their game. And at that point, there was no chance talking to them anymore.
important: i'm not planning to lock away anybodies options in ja2 1.13
Everything you say about locking is true in the sense that I'm sure you have very good intentions of only locking critical things. Led BR, or AIM or Scifi mode. As I've said that all sounds wonderful. In a general discussion I think you would even get a lot of support if your views were presented similar to your writing above. But, and its a huge but, in a discussion on financial matters its very easy for your locking discussion to come across a "you will all play by MY rules and I feel the game is too easy so I'm restricting cash even more!" This misinterpretation is even easier when you specifically support taxacaria's position since he comes across as the most vocal of the JA2 is perfect but too easy school.

I think there is also just a poor bad luck issue involved in how people view locking. Currently 1.13 comes with wandering militia and reinforcements on by default. My reading of these forums says that most players do not like these options as set up right now. People are being trained that its a good thing to be able to change broken options. Now you talk about locking options and people envision never being able to fix things. As an example, I'm sure wandering militia work if you play fast or on Expert or Insane. My first game in 1.13 after more then a year of not playing JA2 was experienced and I always play every game (not just JA) in a slow and methodical fashion. The roving militia ruined the game by winning it for me! If I had been locked out of turning off this feature I would have quit 1.13 never to return. Neither wandering militia nor reinforcements are bad ideas. They were worth implementing.

Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:

so if their request is as dumb as "me want stat xy raised" or "me want to shoot rockets to moon and back to hit enemy with plasma gun from moon" i do feel i have a certain right to tell them in a very direct way that they shouldn't be too optimistic
Hour many of these requests are there really? I looked at the first page of the feature from and found one silly request (vampire kingpin) and even it has real value. Everything else seemed to be reasonable discussion on either important features (dual bursts, resolutions)or ways to make the game harder and generally more customizable (leveling options, various BR discussions, dex effects, & crippling hits).I'll agree that some of these should be in discussion not request but they are not horrible issues.

BTW what options do you think have messed things up? And why do you think that they are a problem given that you could just loch them out? As I see it if mod makers are gives a reasonable way to lock features in .ini or xml files then there is no reason to declare a requested option as unbalancing. If a specific mod maker feels it is a problem. he can lock it out. If dry all offends you then lord it in your mod but do not call it a cheat since it might be just the thing this someone else needs to fit their conception.
Quote:
Originally posted by the scorpion:

what would you think is a better tactic? i lack valid alternatives. Leaving the people alone with their request as suggested by some othe rforum mebers is what most modmakers used to do, and the dev team is still trying to fix the consequences of that.
How about doing exactly what you are doing now but silently? That's only half a joke. There is rarely any feedback from the real coders so most people wouldn't care if ideas were discussed without ever hearing an "official" voice. Then you, or anyone else, could keep a running tally of good discussions/ requests to past on to the coders.It still has all the problems of one filtering person but by making the filter quiet it will remove the hard feelings. Your voice is important but by constantly insulting people and belittling their ideas you are losing the voice of reason and becoming reactionary in the minds of many people.

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Corporal
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127381] Sat, 23 September 2006 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
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I'd just like to clear up, that we're busy, and we don't always offer feedback, but we do pay attention to what's being posted, even if it is 14 days later Smile

And we're primarily concerned with bugs above and beyond features at this point. If you can't find Dev posts right now, you're just not looking in the right forum Smile

Currently, we only have the voices of what modders? Scorpion, Azazel and Khor (forgive me if I missed anyone), so those voices are important. And I know there are a ton of other modders out there, so obviously they're not thrilled with 1.13, or they'd be here posting.

Considering that 1.13 is fun to play, but without some new story lines and maps etc... it could eventually fall down and die in front of the next big kick-ass non-1.13 mod that comes along. Unlikely, but I'd still prefer to see it as the base for "most" future JA2 mods.

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First Sergeant

Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127382] Sat, 23 September 2006 14:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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I don't think there are necessarily any shortage of modders. Most everyone that posts in the 1.13 section is to some degree a potential modder. The sheer volume of work involved in making a simple map mod I guess usually scares away anyone with a passing interest.
This section of the forum is very cool because it offers the most promising new mod a home for all collaborators to check in on and develop in the open air anything that can or should be done in this fashion. I'm glad scorpion has a place to do this since he has proven himself to be a very able contributor as well as someone who can get it done.

But I think there will be more active modders once a stable version of the 1.13 is reached or even better a sort of automatic .xml updater utility and a Map Editor that recognises the 1.13. Quests and hard coded sector characteristics would then be the only major unmoddable aspect to possibly hinder really new storyline development and while these may be just too ingraned in the code to tamper with I don't think they are untouchable (but this is speaking from pure intuition with no coding know how to back it up).


I'm glad that bugs are the main focus right now. Vanilla Ja2 was buggy enough so introducing new bugs could be a real game killer to some folks and lead to problems with new feature implementation down the road. I wish the weapon stat threads would all be grouped together into some heading to keep me from having to read through all the 'I wish they'd give the HK21 x ammount of range' drool but I think this is neccessary if we wish to keep the 1.13 a true community project.
I always feel a little guilty posting wish list stuff in virtually every comment in the 1.13 section but most likely can't help myself just like the guys that scream for simple .xml tweaks in every thread they post in. Such is the cost of free speech.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127383] Sun, 24 September 2006 01:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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khor

while i don't agree with some parts, i find the middle part of your posting interesting

it's in my eyes also a problem with automatic svn updates that doesn't yet allow for modmakers to do actual mods. they are waiting for a finsihed 1.13. be honest, only a margin of these "potential modders" know a tiny bit about quests, nor do they interest themselves a lot into it. The svn release is problematic. people only want to release their stuff if merged onto SVN (since nobody wants his mod to be overwritte by an update the day after release)

what does that mean? it means the svn release turns into a hybrid of countless little mods, which are added to normal 1.13 upon public discussion. please see the forum, there are even polls being held now for svn additions of new features. it's clear that modmakers can hardly test their mod without SVN merges. they'd have to update them eac time a bugfix or addition is applied to svn,and the player might have to redownload each time.

so the lack of mods (be honest, there are currently no mods around and the 1.13 project isn't all new anymore) is for me also related to the way 1.13 is developed. SVN releases hold a monopoly over other "test releases" or such.

the first question is always "when will this be on the SVN" before downloading any mods/ custom builds, so player's won't download what's not on the SVN (unless they have a certain interest in it. but this only refers to some dozens maximum of people that check the forums. modmakers can't hold serious tests of their work without SVN...)

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127384] Sun, 24 September 2006 01:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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I don't at all agree with this although it may well be keeping some people from modding.


The fact is you can build a mod around the 10-07-05 build of 1.13 then just offer this whole version as a download if that's what you want. It is true the 10-07 will lack any current features but you could do this or offer any other version you wanted and people would surely gobble it up. The coders have also graciously extended an open invitation to any modder who'd like a custom version of the .exe to do away with any feature they don't like so I can't see where a possible problem could be.


These people could not possibly be any more accomodating to us humble game builders, we just have to take them up on their offer.


That said, I do agree that some of the requests are a little more than a little alarming to the project as a whole but they've shown amazing discretion and foresight so far so we can only hope for that level of quality control to continue.


Otherwise we'll all be just using custom versions of the 1.13. Wouldn't that be sad.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127385] Sun, 24 September 2006 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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how could somebody make a release for an old version if necessary features aren't included?

that's nonsensical Khor.

look at custom builds. players don't downlaod it if it's not on SVN or they have special interest in it. stop thinking about MY mod. it's not about RR here. i will find a way to work with what i can get hold of. no need to give advice to me about old versions i somtimes even support pre-1.13 stuff on the way so really try thinking in the scale of the 1.13 project and your "potential modmakers", and what they'd need to finally start making mods.
i for my part i know exactly that once the necessary features are there, and my voice actors send me their stuff and such i'll pick the best exe that's around, let it be tested, revise it, release no matter about later updates.

but think of those little minor additions like the tooltipps code, the armour code, weapon rebalancing stuff...
for their creators to get the necessary feedback they need SVN. otherwise their mods will be largely ignored. please look, there's even polls with 5 people taking part (and 2 ticking " i don't care" )
that must be an alarm sign to us taking care of the entire proejct. it migth be irrelevant to mine and your mod but not to others.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127386] Sun, 24 September 2006 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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Well, either you didn't understand me or are being opaque on purpose. i wouldn't dare give allmight YOU advice about YOUR project. I don't care for verbal abuse from someone too far away to reach out and grab by his scrawny little throat when he whines in my direction. I've tried to offer help and advice in this section only to see my own efforts ripped apart in a typically Eurotrashy puff of self riteous hissy fitting.

I won't make that mistake again.

But my point was that any modder has the choice of using any previous build he wishes so there is no need to get hung up on the problems of the latest version. Of course we need to voice our opinions in that section and ever rail against things we really think would torpedo the whole project but that should never effect the progress of any individual project except where we have to update .xmls to add the newer features we want.

Here I could see a potential problem because in with features we want might also be something we can't abide and that is where we might have to resort to asking for or making our own specific version of a latest .exe so we might be free of some feature we might hate.
There are maybe other ways around this - features being toggleable and then .inis being lockable might be one solution.

But in the end any modder can use any version of the 1.13 he wants to use as a base with no reguards to the latest features if that is his wish. Since most of the work for a mod has nothing to do with the .xmls I don't see where this should possibly slow down anyone's project. I'm not just talking about this one.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127387] Sun, 24 September 2006 04:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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selfrightous. selfrightous. english is one hell of a language for us non-natives europeans Wink

the trouble for many is the "work in progress" nature of 1.13 project. minor mods made "NOW" can only be seriously released if put onto SVN. coincidentially, nobody makes these long expected small community based mods. for us it's clear we only need to update some xml's as the core of our mods is only affected balancewise if at all by the frequent updates.

but think of pure xml mods. people don't make mods and release them but have to stick with "suggestion for xy stats revamp" or "xy balance brainstorming" and want their ideas to be integrated onto SVN. 90 percent of the rest of the players doens't want it, it doesn't get onto SVN and what can he do for a larger scale release? so everybody changing primarilry xml's is effectviely hindered to display his mod to the mainstream of the players by said SVN.

and a lot of modmaker don't even commence until a "final release" which might not come at all in the near future, as the project is developing even further and only the sky is its limit.

these kinds of mods can hardly have custom exes or such to help them. plus the player lack the possibility to show their prefered values and setting to the community, which always leads to childish "me want gun xy better/ worse" discussions. again, i'm bringing forward a point here that's not my primary concern but other people's issue.
we must face it, many people don't knwo jack about non-xml or ini editions of ja2. they'd have to catch up on all the tools, use slf explore, the beateditor, other tools for old shool modding

the access to the xml's is much much easier, but they have no way to showcase their edits to the fan community, as most people only update through tortoise.
and the community, this doesn't necessarily needs to be the core 1.13 coding team if you fear i want to take away quailty of them, should give modmakers a chance. remember the first mods for normal ja2. these weren't large scale products where the xml controlled values were partially irrelevant, the were weapon mods. and there's currently no good way to make such mods, that's my point, nothing else.

(i don't even know what "opaque" means, all i know is i was just repating my point and not trying to be aggressive if opague would refer to any such thing)

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127388] Sun, 24 September 2006 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
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I still don't see it that way at all. And sorry for venting my caffiene bezz in your direction. Looking back at what I said my language wash harsh to say the least. I have no desire to come off like that and was getting back this soon to edit that crap.
Where I don't get you is that we already have a lot of little .xml mods out there. We have since the beginning and the 1.13 has always been a moving target. For my part, until a few of the fundamental problems with vanilla Ja2 are dealt with (being able to shoulder a rifle and pull out a pistol for 0 APs and some way to broaden the differences in weapon types immediately come to mind) I don't want the .exe to become static.

What I was hoping to do is point out to the community in general that the ever changing nature of the 1.13 does not need to kill or even slow down mod advance since most of the work for a mod comes through the old school methods. For .xml tweaking also a lot of the work comes from deciding on and testing your changed values in game to see if this is really what you want. Since these values can be transferred to a newer build (even if it means the laborious cut/paste, cut/paste till your hand falls off method) you still have done a lot toward a final product even if using the latest build.


But my other point is that noone should feel compelled to use the latest build if he has access to a 'vanilla' version of the older build he can offer as a download with his mod (per 1.13 approval of course) so rather than offering any kind of hinderance to modmaking I see this whole process as potentially spawning a whole new group of mod builders.


But maybe that's blind optimism.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127389] Sun, 24 September 2006 05:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
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Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
sorry. i'm speculating about what could easen the way for potential modmakers. Maybe i'm off as far as the moving target and SVN are concerned. i was thinking maybe if there was an easier way for xml tweaks or new features to get onto SVN and get tested there, the possible audience for modmakers would rise dramaticly compared to releasing their own mods in their respective homeforum. (like tbsgames, bear pit, nad so on)

i didn't think it through where the xml tweaks come to it. they would conflict each other so there would still be a need to sort out a lot of stuff (i'm talking the main svn releases/ updates)even if the aim was to integrate as much as gets done (as options) to have faster testing of new features

see i was trying to figure: new features, good or bad?
what's the best way to figure? testing. how can you find bugs the easiest way? testing.
where do you get the best attention, number of players and thus feedback? only on SVN

my though was to have the SVN feature as much as gets done. that's a change of mind from my side.

But, if we do this to fasten up testing and development speed of new features (options) we'd also have to have some way of "picking" good features for individual mods. i think the more customizable 1.13 is for each modmaker the better. this would mean being able tp pick the feature you like after they've been tested thoroughly on SVN

for what i failed to find an idea is for xml tweaks. there should be a way how players can update xml's but still maintain mods the downloaded. sure the modmaker can update it and the reupload it and the player can redownload...

... but it's inconvinient. i would appreciate your feedback on that. even if we're mostly of different opininion, a good synthesis may lie between thesis and antithesis.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127390] Sun, 24 September 2006 05:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
Well after much consideration, i don't feel that an Item editor would be of much help with this situation, it would help individual players modify the XML's, but considering the development time required for such an editor and the constantly changing XML files, it would kind of be counter-productive to work on an Item Editor. Someone else could probably knock one out in no time. For me though, we're talking a few months of me working on nothing else but the item editor, and even then reaching Headrocks expectations would be near impossible.

However... Some method of updating XML's per Khor's thread in the 1.13 section seems neccessary.

Khor, have you found the spreadsheet to be of much use in this regard? Or do you still feel that an XML Updater is essential?

Also, Jones has a working Map Editor, and his Map Editor, derived from the 1.13 code itself should be compatible with ANY maps that work with 1.13, the Editor code is part of 1.13 and therfore uses the same functions that load maps into the game itself. Unfortunately, I beleive he waiting for "Full" SVN access and for his contributions to become part of the main SVN.

Any thoughts?

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First Sergeant

Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127391] Sun, 24 September 2006 06:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
No problem. we're often approaching the same question from two completely different angles and this is often a very good way to solve problems. Again, I wasn't meaning to ridicule your ideas or even diminish their importance it's just that I see this 'open to the community' project as the best possible idea since we've had at least a half dozen talented coders come out of the woodwork to support it and innumnerable comments by the Ja community as a whole. I'm very much against having it go underground even as far as having to do things through the svn. we saw what kind of progress happens when people seperate themselves from the community at large and I don't want to see it go that way again. Couple this with the fact that a lot of new ideas get shot down before anyone even tries them on and you might see where some level of frustration stirs.


But enough of that.

I'm going to see the guy I know who knows Perl and will see if he can write a script to automatically update my .xmls. If this is sucessful I'll ask him if it is possible to make it so it can be offered as a tool to easily update everyones.

Also of interest was a post by wil473 about some kind of tool for updating .xmls already available. It is in the general discussion part of the 1.13 if I'm not mistaken.
There aren't enough hours in the day to do the mapping, quest crap and speech docs let alone check into this but when my focus turn back to the .xmls (especially if I have no luck getting a conversion utility) I'll let you know if you haven't found out already.

What I've been trying to say is even if you have to manually redo all your .xmls this is still way better than either sacrificing new features (in my opinion) or resorting to a non 1.13 .exe where you have to use the old weapon editor.


EDIT


Kaiden posted the same time as me so I didn't get a chance to answer here.

As for the Item Editor, I do think it is maybe wasted work until the 1.13s features become somewhat static. As much as I'd like the easy interface you couldn't really expect someone to do all this work only to have to redo it for every new .xml structure.

I've never used a spreadsheet and have so much on my plate right now I haven't messed around with even downloading it. Since you're wanting an answer I will make this a priority and should know one way or another within a week (a couple days if I catch on fast). Other than that, I'm asking the coder I know today about a fully mechanised updater and should have something on this by later on tonight (we will most likely discuss this over a case of beer so I w2on't have a good answer for some time).


If jones wants someone to Beta test his map editor all he needs to do is send it my way and I'll see if it works. Any beta editor will work for getting a map out, it's just that the items structure will be all screwy with items placed on maps that use dependant .xml 'branches'. If his works with the current tree we can all breath a sigh of relief.


Thanx Kaiden.

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Sergeant Major
Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127392] Sun, 24 September 2006 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
No Rush Khor, from your other posts, I was under the impression that XMLS are what you were working on. So again, don't hurry on my account. Wil seems to at least find it helpful.

I plan on playing with it some too, but I'm a bit biased on whether or not it's "easy" or "difficult"

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First Sergeant

Re: in case anybody is worrying...[message #127393] Sun, 24 September 2006 14:58 Go to previous message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Well, all I heard on the updater idea is why don't you.... So I guess I don't have any scource for this.

Sorry.

It sounded like maybe something that was doable and the guy I know makes robots run with code so I thought this would be a walk in the park.


So I guess I'll try learning spreadsheet and see if that makes converting old .xmls to newer structures easy. I'm really not worried about it since the Tabledata folder is now so easily configurable I can come back to rework my items mod at any time.
I'm laying off of this for now in favor of other things that I've neglected.

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Sergeant Major
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