Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » JA2 Complete Mods & Sequels » JA2 Renegade Republik » real life references controversy
real life references controversy[message #127488] Sun, 05 November 2006 00:17 Go to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
i'm interested to get some feedback about how controversial/ problematic it would be to use real life names of cities/ countries/ ozeans Wink
company logos can be found in the maps as well

they've been there in the mod for a long time but i've been informed it could be problematic to have them in the final release, as certain ethnicities or nationalities could feel offended.

while the country and its leaders portrayed is completely fictional, it would be composed of real existing cities and ethnic groups (which aren't portrayed as such though)

neither are ethnic/ religious groups portrayed as "good or bad"

i'd like to hear opinions, and even more so, like to hear arguments against or in favour.

during testing, it may become more apparent what's wrong/ controversial but general thoughts without reading/ hearing actual examples can be discussed now already.

:smallman:

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127489] Sun, 05 November 2006 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cycloid Torus is currently offline Cycloid Torus

 
Messages:14
Registered:June 2001
Location: New England, USA
Good question!! I bet this varies by country, government and the relative strength and insanity of local power groups.

Here in USA use of a disclaimer (" This is fiction.") protects to some extent, especially when use is limited and appears to fall under "Fair Use" concept.

Learned discussion can be found at: http://www.publaw.com/fairusetrade.html

The balance is usually whether the reference is incidental and merely adds color to the fictional work, or if it appears to be a purposeful taking of value from the owner of the Intellectual Property. Some owners do not like being criticized (or pilloried or satirized) and they adopt an offensive tactic (dual meaning fully intended) which is to throw money at some lawyers and make the perpetrator suffer the nine hells of a lawsuit.

In the end, I think you are "ok" if you use names for color, but should try to cloak the reference if it is negative.

FURD - "Fix Up, Repair Daily" auto manufacturer
SUX6000 - patrol car of the future made by General Engines

Could make a contest about really cute psuedo names....

CT

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: real life references controversy[message #127490] Sun, 05 November 2006 02:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I really don't see any problem with being as politically incorrect as you like or even featuring openly racist or nationalistic characters. After all, it is a game where we can kill anyone we want so I imagine it might give some folks a kick to sort of burn in effigy some character they despise.

That said, there are a lot of thin skinned people out there who may not feel the same as I do about these sorts of things. I think it is a valid point of concern and should talked about lest you alienate some players or just give them the wrong impression of what you are trying to achieve. It's easy with my own mod because everyone knows Allies=bad Axis=worse so I can have characters say anything but in our modern world some people are so eager to denounce the stereotypes that characterise their social group they take offense to any depiction of said stereotypes.

I think we should all lighten up quite a bit about this crap. I've always had an idea for a very stereotypical Indian character who maybe runs a convienence store, speaks in a humbling manner, is mortified at cow punching, etc. Although I have the greatest respect for the culture and people of India, I think such stereotypes are funny.

I'm Irish American, but it cracks me up when I see depictions of farting drunks who get sentimental even when they are fighting for no good reason. I know this stereotype does little to advance understanding of Irish people but also that it's not a complete misrepresentation either.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127491] Sun, 05 November 2006 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tbird94lx is currently offline tbird94lx

 
Messages:682
Registered:April 2002
Location: ohhhhhh canada
i'm canadian...we sorta laugh at things in games or tv offending people cause it aint real so why waste energy letting it get to ya..so..please feel free to set a huge urban battle in downtown toronto..newfs vs goths on queen street..huzzah

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant

Re: real life references controversy[message #127492] Sun, 05 November 2006 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AZAZEL is currently offline AZAZEL

 
Messages:750
Registered:February 2004
Yup.
On the other hand, the question is: what is really gained by a game or mod by making real life references?
Aside from some possible overnight notoriety (bad attention) due to controversed things,I mean.
The game might actually loose from this kind of RL reference,players can fill in with their imagination fictional thing, while specific references negate that possibility.
Also,do you get money for displaying company logos in the game? Maybe sell advertising space on walls, containers,crates?? Joking again...but I really think that shouldn't happen.

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant
Re: real life references controversy[message #127493] Sun, 05 November 2006 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
You're right. It is of such periphreal importance and has real potential to start a lot of uneccessary debate that maybe it would be best left out.


Again, I think such things are funny even if I patently don't agree with them but other folks might be offended or at least have the wrong kind of focus on your project. It might be fun but could easily be more headache than it is worth.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127494] Sun, 05 November 2006 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
I agree with everyone here. But I would use different wording as Cycloid suggested. Just to be safe. Personally I don't give a rat's ass what gets displayed, and would laugh my ass off. I am like Khor political correctness is BS and I am so sick of it myself. I am also Irish American and don't care what anyone says or jokes about the Irish. I know alot of good Irish jokes.

What's the definition of an Irish cocktail?
A pint of guinness with a potato in it. :biglaugh:

Seriously I wouldn't worry about it to much.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: real life references controversy[message #127495] Sun, 05 November 2006 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The NumbNuts is currently offline The NumbNuts

 
Messages:75
Registered:May 2004
Location: Keuruu, Finland

I think I agree with the rest of those who wrote (I think cos I didn't read all through).
You shouldn't really worry about such things.
These things rarely even get spotted. I mean even tough there is a large fan base JA, I think that this kind of a "smaller mod" don't even get shown for those who might get angry about their company logo being posted on a wall of a wrecked house.
If we were doing a game, lets say for example, for EA of some other well known gamestudio, then it could be a problem if the game had real city names and product logos allover the game without any sort of an agreement.

But in a game-mod like this.. I wouldn't worry.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: real life references controversy[message #127496] Mon, 06 November 2006 01:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
the point is i'm personally responsible for much of the content and i don't want to display any ignorance apart of the things that are meant to support the game design and the story/ setting

some things i'm deliberately making fun of, other things might be perceived in a manner in which i never intended them to be understood, and i would like, if anybody spots such things, to report it (during testing) so that it gets thought through and, if necessary, taken care of

i personally find it necessary that my mod that plays in the caucasus area has at least some cyrillic letters in the map. i didn't replace everything, just a bit. this also includes a common company's logo, which won't really hurt anybody. City names: i think i will just have to skip the cities that have special notions about themselves and use cities that are not so problematic.

it is hard in a game (even more so in a mod) to not cross the line between funny stereotypes/ satire to anything that could be taken as a real offense.

i think we'll be able to further discuss that issue once people see a bigger part of the picture. I think the initial criticism was meant more in a way of "it would be unwise to go into that direction of using real life politics in a serious way for the mod"
i'm really trying to pay attention to the multi-national community here and not aiming for a black and white scenario of good guys versus bad guys while the bad guys belong to a special religion or ethnictiy. the bad guys background is rather undefined and kept as anonymous as in vanilla ja2.
for instance, you will be able to hire the first Moslem ever in the history of ja2, but only if you figure a not so obvious quest.
You can also hire a Jew (whose lines, being somewhat stereotypical, have been revised/looked at by jews so nobody getting this as antisemitic i hope)

in the final release, these two characters might be mutually exclusive as they'd quarrel with each other all the time. It will be important that these characters are designed in a way that people still can see the humor in it. If their hostility would be taken serious, then that would mean that i have crossed the thin line...

these are things that are now unclear on how the average gamer will perceive them. I don't want people to quit playing the mod because of their reluctance to see/ hear things they disapprove of in a political or religious manner. and whatever details that will be, we will have to see.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127497] Mon, 06 November 2006 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shed23 is currently offline shed23

 
Messages:130
Registered:October 2004
Location: U.K.
In my honest opinion, which will not be shared by all, I find the very thought of 'political/religious correctness' irrelevant. If a person(s) politics or faith is not strong enough to withstand any form of 'percieved' attack, or even see it for what it is (lighthearted/story related etc..) then they have no faith or politics. But that is my opinion, for what it is worth. After all, it is only a game!

Remember, 'You can please most of the people most of the time, but not all of the people all of the time'.

So long as any relation to 'real life' is done in a non-threatening way, then fine, it reduces the possible number who may get upset.

From what I can gather, the vast majority of people on this forum are very sensible, therefore, what makes you ask such questions? I cannot see that you, or any of your team, would knowingly add something very controversial in the first place. However, I appreciate why you ask, and kudos for doing so.

The company logo use could be seen as a bit of free advertising, cannot see a problem there!

Hmmmmm! A Jew and a Moslem. This has potential to be 'touchy'. I certainly would not be too concerned though, for as you say, they will not get along together anyway. Has potential for some comical situations though!
Please bear in mind that I have a very cynical/twisted outlook on life (brought about by life itself) and I cannot see what, in the game world, would upset me, let alone others.

Carry on as you are and best of luck.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant
Re: real life references controversy[message #127498] Mon, 06 November 2006 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicky is currently offline Vicky

 
Messages:66
Registered:January 2006
Location: New Zealand
I agree with Shed23.

I know there will be a lot of stereotyping in the game, i think most games/movie etc have to have a little bit of stereotyping so that players can relate to parts in the game. It makes it more interesting and individual. Most merc's in the game are stereotypes of different cultures and backgrounds and basically it would be impossible to remove all the stereotypes without confusing the issue completely.

I personally take no offense to female stereotypes in games or movies. Its something you come across all the time(and basically has to exist) and so long as you know who you are, and what you stand for and believe in there is no harm done. This is off the topic a bit I know but all I'm saying is hopefully it is the same for other stereotypical aspects also (such as culture etc).

Fingers crossed people who play the game in the future read these boards and realise that Scorpion has not created any characters in a hateful manner. It will be a brilliant game to play and I really really look forward to spending many sleepless weeks trying to complete it!

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: real life references controversy[message #127499] Tue, 07 November 2006 07:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lucas is currently offline Lucas

 
Messages:311
Registered:June 2006
Location: Londrina, PR, Brazil
Company logos are only allowed with some changes, I mean, Sony can be changed to Suny and the Adidas logo With three diagonal stripes can be changed to two/four diagonal stripes... And changed the name to Ardidas, heh Razz

And Microsoft can be changed to Microsponge, LOL :biglaugh:

Report message to a moderator

Master Sergeant
Re: real life references controversy[message #127500] Tue, 07 November 2006 08:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
well, it's ja2 so the logo is heavily blurred and much lesser identifiable then the "fed ex" logo in Urban Chaos Wink

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127501] Wed, 13 December 2006 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates is currently offline Will Gates

 
Messages:1012
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Do what you like, write what you like. It's your mod. It's fictional. If people are offended they don't have to play it do they. PC has come to something like tyranny if we worry about offending some oversensitive group or other. F**k 'em. It's a game about contract killing FGS; there's a whole swathe of PC people who'd find that offensive in itself.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127502] Wed, 13 December 2006 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tbird94lx is currently offline tbird94lx

 
Messages:682
Registered:April 2002
Location: ohhhhhh canada
i find steroids "poor man's arnold" portrayel offensive..yet i hire him anyhow to let my lil pal igor fill him fulla holes :biglaugh:

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant

Re: real life references controversy[message #127503] Thu, 14 December 2006 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
borout is currently offline borout

 
Messages:38
Registered:November 2004
Location: Slovenia
if you take into consideration any and all possible offences, politically correct talk etc. you can stop making your game. so, i would reccomend only to avoid what can be prosecuted by the law and maybe add to the game a rating, like other games are rated.

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: real life references controversy[message #127504] Thu, 14 December 2006 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bearpit is currently offline Bearpit

 
Messages:1073
Registered:August 2001
Location: Sydney Australia.
Your in game images sugggest an oil theme.
Evil Oil - Evil Oil Inc - Evil Oil International.

Seeing you have image creation genuis tbird941x visiting here and others like Marlbro Man around maybe they could create a unique logo.

Barrel of "Evil Oil" oil with a three pronged pitchfork across it or a barrel of oil with a three pronged pitchfok across one diagonal & kalashnikov across the other like the bones on a skull & crossbones.
Or a barrel of oil with three pronged pitchfork & a snake wrapped around the pitchfork (snake oil) :eek4:

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127505] Thu, 14 December 2006 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vicky is currently offline Vicky

 
Messages:66
Registered:January 2006
Location: New Zealand
Your mind frightens me..

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: real life references controversy[message #127506] Thu, 14 December 2006 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tbird94lx is currently offline tbird94lx

 
Messages:682
Registered:April 2002
Location: ohhhhhh canada
LX..not 1x..i feel like an android now :/ and i aint no artist genius..i'm a neophyte wannabe learning goober o joy

Report message to a moderator

First Sergeant

Re: real life references controversy[message #127507] Thu, 14 December 2006 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bearpit is currently offline Bearpit

 
Messages:1073
Registered:August 2001
Location: Sydney Australia.
Vicky.
Quote:
Your mind frightens me..
:wrysmiley:

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Re: real life references controversy[message #127508] Sun, 17 December 2006 01:44 Go to previous message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
the oil company referneces are marginal

the logos are only scenery so they aren't controversial at all.

what is controversial is the idea to use real existing cities which should be conquered. That might be problematic. On the other hand it would be idiotic to use fantasy names if the story gives a clear indication of where we are

plus fantasy names that give hints to the real cities would suck as well

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major
Previous Topic: Tony`s hardcoded script?
Next Topic: remember, remember, the ninth of december
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Jul 19 15:49:34 GMT+3 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01404 seconds