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Autofire[message #11731] Wed, 14 September 2005 12:48 Go to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
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I do not like the way autofire is implemented in 1.13 (or does it come from the Whitehat project). I think that base APs for autofire should be the same as base APs for a burst. I just don't see any reason for them to be different. APs for extra rounds on top of the standard burst length should be added to burst APs. I think the current implementation should be changed as follows:

By default the autofire is equivalent to burst - same AP cost, same burst length. You can then add extra rounds for extra APs. This would be more logical and more balanced.

bBaseAutofireCost should set the standard burst APs on top of the single-shot AP cost. In the original weapon table, this would be 4 APs for all automatic guns except the G11, which would have 0. Of course, modders could revise the burst APs for other guns as well.

The parameter bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP should specify the rate of autofire beyond the standard burst length.

Example: C-7 has a 5-round burst, bBaseAutofireCost = 4, bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP = 5. If a single shot costs 6 APs, then a 5-round burst (either in Burst or in Autofire mode) will cost 10 APs, a 6-round autofire burst will cost 11, 7-round burst - 12, etc.

Makes sense?

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11732] Wed, 14 September 2005 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DurtyDan is currently offline DurtyDan

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2001
Location: Oregon, USA
No complaints here.

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Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11733] Wed, 14 September 2005 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
Um.. I thought that's the way it did work...

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11734] Wed, 14 September 2005 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
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I like that idea except that you should still be able to squeese off less than three rounds in autofire mode even if the burst number was three. I think an autofire burst should cost at least as much aps as a burst even if only two rounds are squeesed off. The reason for this is it takes more concentration to control a burst than deliver a preautomated select fire type burst. Plus it levels game balance a little.

My other request is that you make single shots removeable so that weapons with burst only can be represented.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Autofire[message #11735] Wed, 14 September 2005 13:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DurtyDan is currently offline DurtyDan

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2001
Location: Oregon, USA
Quote:
My other request is that you make single shots removeable so that weapons with burst only can be represented.


Right on. This would represent machineguns more accurately (no more sniper rifle/machinegun super rifles).

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Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11736] Wed, 14 September 2005 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Majek is currently offline Majek

 
Messages:437
Registered:January 2003
Location: Slovenia
Valid points but if we're fixing autofire, then G11's burst might as well harcoded back to the way it was while autofire should be like by other rifles.
that's because it fires the 3round burst at around 2000rpm while if in auto it's only 600rpm. that's why it has(d) no burst penalty, cause there was no reocil until after the last shot of the 3 is fire.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11737] Wed, 14 September 2005 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
Majek, another option....

We could add a weapon bonus slot (similar to the way you can pick and choose your bonus for new or modified attachments)

And some of the options could be AdjustAPSingle, AdjustAPBurst, and AdjustAPAuto.

Stay away from that evil HC word, it's bad I tell ya.

Anyway, I haven't delved much into Mugsy's XML code, in fact XML is rather new to me, but when I get that far, I can make these changes.

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11738] Wed, 14 September 2005 23:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Majek is currently offline Majek

 
Messages:437
Registered:January 2003
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now this would be the best option. i'm all for that if you or anyone else can get it to work Kaiden Smile

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11739] Thu, 15 September 2005 03:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
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If autofire characteristics were fully externalised then we could easily choose wether a weapon has burst, autofire, single shot or any combination of the three. There are many (usually vintage) weapons that had full auto only but also if we want to add zip guns to mods this feature would be the norm among converted firearms (that is to say semi autos that were modified to full autos by people without access to machine shops).
I hope this request is given some consideration.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Autofire[message #11740] Thu, 15 September 2005 03:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
"A modified M16 Assault Rifle" - JA Narrator voice

Hrm.... How about an attachment that can be added to "burst only" capable weapons that will up them to full auto?

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11741] Thu, 15 September 2005 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
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Actually, almost every firearm with semi auto can be converted to full auto with relative ease. But making one that has a selector for semi auto is quite a bit more involved. And also some weapons will do some pretty nasty things when converted (I mean nasty to the operator and not the intended target).
Having an attachment that modifies weapons is a good idea but it would ideally have serious negative effects for most weapons. These would include deteriorating weapon status rapidly and possibly even breaking the gun on the first spray.
The most likely drawback would be that converted weapons would no longer have single shot capability (except maybe with yet another attachmet).

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Sergeant Major
Re: Autofire[message #11742] Thu, 15 September 2005 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
Quote:

Hrm.... How about an attachment that can be added to "burst only" capable weapons that will up them to full auto?
Already doable in the xml.

Quote:

And some of the options could be AdjustAPSingle, AdjustAPBurst, and AdjustAPAuto
We've already got adjustment stats for overall APs used and autofire. I have just added PercentBurstFireAPReduction.

It will require a significant amount of work to add a bonus that just applies to single fire, since the other modes build off of it.

Likewise, it will not be possible to remove single fire without completely rewriting the way weapons and the AI work.


Quote:

Valid points but if we're fixing autofire, then G11's burst might as well harcoded back to the way it was while autofire should be like by other rifles.
No hardcoding! I have added a new attribute called "FastBurst" that gives the G11 burst speed bonus to an item. This means we can re-use it if they ever make a G12 Wink

Quote:

I do not like the way autofire is implemented in 1.13 (or does it come from the Whitehat project).
It's extrapolated from the whitehat project. They only had it on 2-3 guns.

Quote:

Example: C-7 has a 5-round burst, bBaseAutofireCost = 4, bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP = 5. If a single shot costs 6 APs, then a 5-round burst (either in Burst or in Autofire mode) will cost 10 APs, a 6-round autofire burst will cost 11, 7-round burst - 12, etc.
Here is the formula for autofire, in case anyone's interested:

APs = BaseAutoFireCost + 5 * # bullets / ShotsPer5APs

This is IN ADDITION to the single fire cost, which is calculated as follows:

APs = (( 200 * Soldier's APs ) / ((( 50 + Marksmanship / 2 ) * ShotsPer4Turns ) / 4) + 1) / 2

So a merc with 25 APs and 100 marksmanship needs 7 APs (rounded down) to fire a single C-7 round(ShotsPer4Turns = 15).

So, if that guy wants to autofire 5 rounds, using the base (4) and shotsper5ap(5) above, it would cost him:

7 APs + 4 + 5*5/5 = 16 APs!

No good; we'll need to think about this some more folks.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that the additional burst cost is usually ~4 APs, while the autofire wants a shots per 5 APs instead of 4.

I think that a simple 5 / 4 * shots per burst, rounded up, for the shotsper5aps would probably work.

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11743] Thu, 15 September 2005 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bonechucker is currently offline bonechucker

 
Messages:33
Registered:March 2001
Location: who wants to know ?
hiho

just throwing in my thoughts about autofire and ap- costs....

ap's and ammo are both balancing factors ...

for autofire that could mean: the more ap u spend the more ammo u spare.

example machinegun which has only autofire capabilty will burst out ...lets say 30 bullets for 8 ap
(with a rof of 600rpm that means the trigger is pushed for only 0.3 seconds)
for each 2 more ap's spend the "burst" will be reduced by 5 shots
combined with the the "randomizer-effect" which makes bursts bigger in the current version, it would be another balancing factor.

greets bone

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Private 1st Class
Re: Autofire[message #11744] Thu, 15 September 2005 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Can the "FastBurst" be aimed? This would allow an in game approximation of the G11 and Russian AN-94's trick of being able to fire off a burst (and only a burst mode burst) before recoil is felt/transmitted to the shoulder. Automatic fire would still have to contend with the all the physical recoil and mechanism effects that make aiming nearly useless beyond the first round.

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Lieutenant

Re: Autofire[message #11745] Thu, 15 September 2005 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
Bursts can't be aimed. Wayyy too many code changes. Sorry. You can mess around with the burst penalty though.

bonechucker brings up an interesting point: the random extra bullets fired and aps spent in autofire. I find it really annoying when I've got a level 10 auto-weapons specialist with 100 everything and he "accidentally" spends an extra 18 APs firing off the rest of his clip. I'm going to find that randomizer and make it dependent on marksmanship for the next version.

EDIT: OMG, scariest code I've seen in a while. Rolling dice with 32767 sides? Bah. I divided the sides by 1/10 of the merc's marksmanship. Hopefully that'll straighten things out.

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11746] Thu, 15 September 2005 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DurtyDan is currently offline DurtyDan

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2001
Location: Oregon, USA
Quote:
I've got a level 10 auto-weapons specialist with 100 everything and he "accidentally" spends an extra 18 APs firing off the rest of his clip. I'm going to find that randomizer and make it dependent on marksmanship for the next version.
Sounds great to me. should psycho attribute make any difference here?

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Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11747] Thu, 15 September 2005 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
Nope. That's handled elsewhere.

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11748] Thu, 15 September 2005 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
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@Khor: Well, since most weapons with a fixed burst group have it at 3 rounds, you could set the fixed burst to 3 rounds for most automatic weapons. Squeezing less than 3 shots on full auto is difficult anyway, so I think it won't be much of a realism sacrifice to leave out this option. The upshot: you will be able to fire 3-round bursts in the Burst mode, and 3+ -round bursts in the Autofire mode. How does this sound?

Perhaps we could even make fixed burst an option? Most automatic weapons, especially the older ones, don't have this feature anyway. Having automatic mode only means you won't be able to precisely control the burst length, which adds realism and some diversity to weapons.

Quote:
Originally posted by Majek:
Valid points but if we're fixing autofire, then G11's burst might as well harcoded back to the way it was while autofire should be like by other rifles.
that's because it fires the 3round burst at around 2000rpm while if in auto it's only 600rpm.
With my scheme you can do exactly that - no hardcoding needed. If you set the burst APs to 0 for the G11, it will fire the first 3 rounds at no additional cost WRT single shot, but if it also has autofire enabled, then subsequent shots will be fired at the rate specified by bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP. The only problem is that you can only specify one burst penalty, so if it has burst penalty 0 for the fixed burst, it will still be 0 for autofire.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11749] Thu, 15 September 2005 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
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Quote:
Originally posted by Madd Mugsy:
Here is the formula for autofire, in case anyone's interested:

APs = BaseAutoFireCost + 5 * # bullets / ShotsPer5APs

This is IN ADDITION to the single fire cost, which is calculated as follows:

APs = (( 200 * Soldier's APs ) / ((( 50 + Marksmanship / 2 ) * ShotsPer4Turns ) / 4) + 1) / 2
My bad, I think I misread this. So then how about we make so that BaseAutoFireCost determines the extra AP cost of burst (which is currently fixed at 4 APs for all weapons), as well as the minimum AP cost of an autofire burst?

I would like to emphasize that the way I proposed it, an autofire burst would have a minimum length equal to the minimum length of a fixed burst. So that autofire with no additional APs is the same as fixed burst (except it might be shorter or longer).

An alternative would be to eliminate the minimum autofire burst length (but make it very difficult to squeeze off less than 3 APs, especially for high ROF guns). Then BaseAutoFireCost need not apply to autofire at all - only to the fixed burst. Autofire AP cost would then be determined entirely by ShotsPer5APs (if this parameter is inconvenient, we could replace it with something else).

Example (alternative):

M-16 with BaseAutoFireCost = 3 (3-round burst) and ShotsPer5APs = 5

single shot = 6 APs
3-round burst = 6 + 3 = 9 APs
7-round autofire burst = 6 + 7*(5/5) = 13 APs

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11750] Fri, 16 September 2005 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
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Snap

I was thinking about full auto only weapons like alot of early SMGs and a lot of current amature field conversions that no longer have semi auto as a selection.
But I guess if Mugsy says it's too difficult to implement I guess time might be better spent fixing some things. Top on my list would be the inordinate accuracy of full auto fire. This turns game balance on it's head and is contradictory to reality. I'm not grumbling, just making an observation.


On the way to Detroit last night I was thinking:


A method for how to implement crew served weapons might be achieved by enabling a merc standing on the tile immediately beside the gunner to act as both loader and insurance against misfires/jams. For the loader to have any in game effect other than just loading a little bit (maybe not so little bit) of coding would be neccesary.
Perhaps an if/and statement might greatly increase a crew served weapon's misfiring or jamming after the second 'clip' (I parenthesise clip because this could also pertain to Bazooka type weapons like Dragons and Stingers as well) is expended unless the assistant gunner (the merc on the tile next to the gunner) is present.
In addition to this, loading time might be increased by perhaps a full 25aps when no 'assistant' is present. An easy way to do this would be to make the weapon and it's ammo not function until a combination is made (I think combine requires 10 aps so the gunner spends part of his turn firing and the other part accepting the 'combined' clip from the assistant. The assistant spends his turn making the actual combination then handing this to the gunner). In reality the gunner doesn't have to do anything to accept the ammo but this would be a way within existing parameters. This method could be done with both machine gun belts (non linked = non combined, linked = combined but with a flag for being already loaded into the weapon to negate the obvious cheat) or Bazooka type ammo (non primed = non combined, primed = combined).
Weight of the crew served weapon could be enourmous when the tripod or base is attached and when it is not, accuracy goes way down.

Now these are ideas, any two of which could make a somewhat balanced system for having massive fire weapons available.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Autofire[message #11751] Sun, 02 October 2005 12:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
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OK, after looking at the code and testing a bit, here is my final (?) proposal:

Base autofire cost should be calculated just as base burst cost, which is the same as unaimed single shot. Thus, BaseAutoFireCost parameter becomes unnecessary.

Instead, we introduce the parameter BurstAPs, which gives the burst cost. In standard JA2 this would be 5 APs for all weapons except the G11, but modders will be free to change it. This would give some more flexibility in setting weapon properties.

The rate of autofire is still determined by ShotsPer5APs.

How is this?

(Khor, your crew-served idea is out of my depth, unfortunately.)

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Master Sergeant
Re: Autofire[message #11752] Sun, 02 October 2005 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
I think this is a good idea, and it should render the FastBurst stat obsolete.

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First Sergeant

Re: Autofire[message #11753] Mon, 03 October 2005 10:46 Go to previous message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
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No sooner said than done Smile You've got mail.

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Master Sergeant
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