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Silencers[message #11926] Mon, 03 October 2005 12:38 Go to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
Location: USA (by way of the Old Wo...
Right now a silencer in decent condition will reduce a gun's noise volume to 1. I say that's too boring :diabolical:

Firstly, I suggest that an item with the silencer attribute be given a noise reduction rating, e.g. 90%. This way we can have more than one silencer in the game. The silencer rating will act upon the guns's noise volume (ubAttackVolume). So a gun with ubAttackVolume = 50 will have it reduced to 5 by a 90% silencer.

Speaking of which, noise volumes need to be stratified more. Most pistol-caliber weapons should be much quieter than rifle-caliber weapons. This way we can have an appreciable difference in silencer effectiveness.

Perhaps even better would be to implement a two-step silencing mechanism. Pick a threashold volume - let's say, 50 - which sort of models the threshold between subsonic and supersonic ammo. Most pistol-caliber weapons will have a noise volume below or just a above this threashold. The silencer will reduce any volume below the threashold in proportion to its noise reduction rating, but anything above that will only be halved. So, for example:

Glock 9mm, ubAttackVolume = 40
Silenced (90%) = 40 * 0.10 = 4

M4 5.56mm, ubAttackVolume = 70
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (70 - 50) / 2 = 15

Dragunov 7.62R, ubAttackVolume = 85
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (85 - 50) / 2 = 22

Barrett .50, ubAttackVolume = 100
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (100 - 50) / 2 = 30


It would probably be more logical to attach the volume attribute to ammo, rather than to the gun, but waepons such as LAW, which don't have ammo, make this problematic. Perhaps we could introduce a "subsonic" attribute to ammo, which would serve to lower the noise volume on guns in which it exceeds the "subsonic" threashold.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Silencers[message #11927] Mon, 03 October 2005 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
I like both ideas Smile

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First Sergeant

Re: Silencers[message #11928] Mon, 03 October 2005 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DurtyDan is currently offline DurtyDan

 
Messages:103
Registered:November 2001
Location: Oregon, USA
Quote:
It would probably be more logical to attach the volume attribute to ammo, rather than to the gun, but waepons such as LAW, which don't have ammo, make this problematic. Perhaps we could introduce a "subsonic" attribute to ammo, which would serve to lower the noise volume on guns in which it exceeds the "subsonic" threashold
I agree, but not all weapons should be able to be silenced, without significant penalty. A "silenced" 7.62 NATO is more accurately described as "reduced accustic signature". The few rifle/supressor combinations use subsonic ammo with significantly reduced terminal ballistic performance

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Sergeant
Re: Silencers[message #11929] Mon, 03 October 2005 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
Location: USA (by way of the Old Wo...
Quote:
Originally posted by DurtyDan:
I agree, but not all weapons should be able to be silenced, without significant penalty. A "silenced" 7.62 NATO is more accurately described as "reduced accustic signature". The few rifle/supressor combinations use subsonic ammo with significantly reduced terminal ballistic performance
Right, not all weapons should be silencable/suppressable, nor will they have to be. It's up to the modder whether to enable silencers for certain weapons. But hopefully with this change you'll be able to have your cake and eat it to. I.e. you could enable a suppressor for M4, for instance, without totally destroying the balance.

And subsonic ammo (if we make such a thing) could have penalty to range and/or damage associated with it - this is already possible with today's technology.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Silencers[message #11930] Mon, 03 October 2005 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bearpit is currently offline Bearpit

 
Messages:1073
Registered:August 2001
Location: Sydney Australia.
Snap.
Quote:
M4 5.56mm, ubAttackVolume = 70
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (70 - 50) / 2 = 15

Dragunov 7.62R, ubAttackVolume = 85
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (85 - 50) / 2 = 22

Barrett .50, ubAttackVolume = 100
Silenced (90%) = 50 * 0.10 + (100 - 50) / 2 = 30
I think your using an unrealistic approach by considering a silencer can be fitted to just about any weapon.

For Island Coup we enabled just 4 categories of ammo to be suitable with silencers ... 9MM, SP4, SP5, PAB9 and accordingly only enabled those weapons using such calibers to have either an inbuilt supressor or facility to mount the traditional JA2 one.

So in typical daylight operations just about all silenced types would be at a disadvantage at a disadvantage compared to assualt & sniper rifles due to their inherently lower range but at night using unsilenced weapons is near suicidal due to custom improvements added to V1.12 where the enemy is more capable & alert.

It's always a balance between gameplay & realism but having a silenced Barret or M249 or FNFAL makes no sense to me.

About the best real world compromise is a VSS or ASVal.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Silencers[message #11931] Mon, 03 October 2005 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
An alternative to the subsonic round flag, is perhaps a slight modification to Snap's idea at the very top of a percent "ubAttackVolume" modifier. Specifically a cumulative percent sound dampaning in items.xml, allowing several item to affect noise levels:
- a pistol Silencer would have a silence potential of 50% on its own regardless of ammo
- a pistol magazines containing "subsonic" ammo have a silence potential of 40%
- combining the two and one would have 90% reduction of the ubAttackVolume"

From my "match grade" experimenting in items.xml (see one of the other threads), it seems magazines do work as modifiers for some weapons stats (I've been lazy and have only tested a range bonus, should test putting in a negative damage points bonus). I agree, the "magazine containg subsonic ammo" should also have negative range, damage and accuracy bonuses to represent reduced performance.

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Lieutenant

Re: Silencers[message #11932] Mon, 03 October 2005 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grindedstone is currently offline grindedstone

 
Messages:88
Registered:August 2004
"negative range and accuracy"

arnt those the same thing?

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Silencers[message #11933] Tue, 04 October 2005 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaiden is currently offline Kaiden

 
Messages:504
Registered:September 2003
Bear Pit, the goal here really isn't gameplay or balance so much as choice. I beleive what Snap is suggesting, is allowing silencers to be attached to any weapon, but then penalizing the larger weapons (which the penalty could also be easily externalized as an option). It will in the end be up to the Modder to make sure that the weapon mod they provide is balanced for their mod. But with all of the choices they have, they can add and subtract from a lot of different areas to gain balance.

What's actually the coolest about this, is when I download a mod, I can change it to suit my playstyle very easily without any modding experience. Even if I want to add laser sights and rocket rifles to a civil war mod, I could.

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First Sergeant

Re: Silencers[message #11934] Tue, 04 October 2005 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
Well, I like this idea. I've already written code for the next release to have the hidemuzzleflash and silenced tags also look at ammo. It'd be easy to change the boolean value to a percentile. I also have different silencer pics, so it'd be cool to have different types.

Plus, we could make integral silencers, like the one on the MP5SD, different and/or more valuable than attached ones.

While both approaches you've proposed are certainly viable and doable, Snap, I prefer the first one as it's more linear and easier for modders and players to understand. It would also be simple to have a different silencer for rifles/louder weapons which is less effective.

Also, check this out:

http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/suppress.html

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First Sergeant

Re: Silencers[message #11935] Tue, 04 October 2005 09:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
With respects to the whole subsonic vs regular ammo argument, you're right Grindedstone, the effective range loss would amount to reduced accuracy. In the items.xml from the 09/23 version, there is both a "RangeBonus" and a "ToHitBonus" which I suggested as a means of penalizing magazines filled with specialized subsonic rounds (where normal rounds are supersonic). Lower power rounds, won't go as far via a negative "RangeBonus" and cause less damage via a negative

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Lieutenant

Re: Silencers[message #11936] Tue, 04 October 2005 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap is currently offline Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
Location: USA (by way of the Old Wo...
Bear (and everyone): You can make any weapon silencable even now. In fact, you could do that with W4st's editor. The problem as I see it is that the way silencers work now, you can either silence a weapon completely, or not at all. (Well, that's not quite true: you could also decrease a weapon's noise radius, which is how VAL is currently implemented.) What I propose doesn't change what you can or can't silence - it changes how you can do it, and gives you more leverage at that. Insead of all or nothing, you can have a compromise, where a suppressed assault carbine is quieter than an unsuppressed one, but still quite a bit louder than a suppressed 9mm pistol. But whether you want to have suppressed carbines at all is still up to you.

Wil: I think you are right: special "subsonic" ammo can simply have a silencer attribute set, which will act in conjunction with the attached silencer, so no need for a special tag. And yes, ammo magazines can have any positive or negative modifiers associated with them: range, to-hit, draw cost, you name it.

Madd: The reason I was thinking of a non-linear silencer response is that the difference in volume between pistol-caliber and rifle-caliber weapons didn't seem enough, even with increased stratification. But this can be addressed in another way: have one silencer that can only be used with pistol-caliber weapons, and another with a lower rating (say, 75%) that can be attached to certain rifle-caliber weapons.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Silencers[message #11937] Tue, 04 October 2005 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KIA is currently offline KIA

 
Messages:92
Registered:November 2002
Location: Virginia (USA)
Silencers require regular cleaning and maintenance to remain effective. How do you propose to reflect this fact? Certainly they should wear out (foul) fairly quickly, particularly with bursts. In fact, they're usually relatively ineffective with respect to bursts since there's too much gas expanding too quicky. Perhaps multiple categoties of silencers could include the following: one-shot "improvised" silencers (2-liter plastic pop bottle, duct tape, decreases accuracy 50%, sound 75%, no silence effect for burst), basic silencers (machine shop, aluminum or steel bar, decreases accuracy 25% (can't see over it very well, obscures sights), decreases sound 85%, wears quickly), advanced silencers (store-bought only, requires special repair kit with steel wool, replacement washers, cleaning brush, etc. - would simply merge cleaning kit with silencer to effect repair) and advanced integral silencers which are incorporated into the firearm and are designed for field support and maintenance. The exact effectiveness numbers can be adjusted as appropriate. Also note, however, many nations are alleged to use silenced .22 caliber sniper weapons. The silencers for these weapons are almost totally effective and it is said that you can only hear the action of the gun as it cycles. Perhaps the silencer should reduce the base weapon noise and larger caliber ammo should increase the base weapon noise?

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Silencers[message #11938] Tue, 04 October 2005 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madd_Mugsy

 
Messages:634
Registered:July 2005
Location: Canada
Quote:

one-shot "improvised" silencers (2-liter plastic pop bottle, duct tape, decreases accuracy 50%, sound 75%, no silence effect for burst)
Isn't there a coke bottle in one of the other mods somewhere?

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First Sergeant

Re: Silencers[message #11939] Tue, 04 October 2005 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I'm not sure but the trick would be to make this item degradable. In the case of a coke bottle or anything else just plugging the barrel it should degrade after one shot (this feature would be cool for certain zip guns too). A variable rate of degredation could also be used for LMG barrels so that for people using full auto a lot there would be something else to consider. The bad thing here would be to have to add an additional items slot for each 'broken' gun so that you could then combine the two to get a working LMG.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Silencers[message #11940] Tue, 04 October 2005 23:13 Go to previous message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
This is something I thought of before 1.13, and now is possible. Sorry if it's a bit off topic:
With 1.13 now, a non-repairable LMG barrel attachment (barrel extender that gives the LMG all of its range) is now possible with the externalizations, ever growing list of stats and 5000 items to fill up. With some of the AP reduction bonuses, it should even be possible to "disable" the LMG when there is no barrel attached (set base firing AP's to some excessively high number for the LMG, the barrel when attached will in addition to providing 30-40 tiles of range, will also lower AP's to something useable by the Merc's). Set it as a default attachment (but easily removable) and the AI's LMG's won't be paperweights.

Back to suppressors, Snap, it was your idea really, just want to confirm if the percentages of sound dampening could be added (seemed like a natural extension). Good to hear the other stats work on magazines too, but to avoid strange magazine loading/unloading errors it would be safer to have a designated "subsonic" type or types in the ammotype list. Not sure which would be easier: making a different subsonic round for each cal, or putting the different characteristics in the subsonic magazines. Incidentally there are already subsonic cals in game that may impact any final sound suppression system (or they will be impacted by the system), the Heavy 9mm and the .45APC perhaps (need to find additional references for this one).

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Lieutenant

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