Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Tools and Guides Repository (Archive) » Improving Original JA2 graphics
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180019]
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Thu, 03 April 2008 18:46
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Kaerar |
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Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003 Location: Australia :D |
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Now one thing nearly everyone is forgetting is map creation. If we do manage to replace the sti format (god I hope so!) then we also have to contend with the JSD format for tiles. This holds the data regarding cover and height. They are a b*tch to work with too. We possibly need to either make them more user friendly or externalise the data so we can set heights and coverages separately.
As for the 2D, 3D argument well its all bonkers. The 2D can look great (as shown by that pic earlier), but then so can 3D. I for one would love to see 3D implemented with a proper physics engine too. That way you can have bullet trajectory, drop off, deviation, damage vs distance, hitting objects in the way, etc...
To be against it because it won't be JA2 is kinda silly. Things evolve and if you play vanilla and then 1.13, you will notice 1.13 is a new game in its own right anyway. Very different and contains the features that the community wanted. I personally can't play vanilla anymore, its too boring!
And I am now too tired to continue typing. Will talk later...
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180081]
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Fri, 04 April 2008 02:24
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BirdFlu |
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Messages:438
Registered:September 2007 Location: Lampukistan |
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Khor1255I don't think changing image format from .sti will require anything more than exporting all images to .bmp than converting to whatever
format is agreed upon. Sure, this will be tedious work and long hours but that's all there is to it as far as I can see.
Starwalker"If it was easy, then someone else would have done it already"
Well, first you have to convert the sti files to some other format. Then you need a loader for that special file type to get
the image data into the game. And when you have the data loaded, you have to render it somehow. And here comes the problem.
The blitting functions of the current rendering engine require the STI's special ETRLE format, so you would have to
change the blitters too, and that is inline assembler code. And as far as i noticed nobody wants to get involved with
assembler code. But if we are going to change/replace the rendering engine, then this problem should disappear automatically
(more or less).
lisacWe need all the (technical) info about STI and JSD files we can get.
What exactly would you consider as "technical" info? The bitwise locations of every data-'object' in the file or the 'compression'-algorithm or something else?
Anyway, i think i can give that info for STI files, as i already handled them. I can't say much about JSD files,but i am at the point where i am starting to look into them.
What would also be interesting is a description of the map format, maybe a rough overview for a start.
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180321]
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Sun, 06 April 2008 18:50
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KeldorKatarn |
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Messages:37
Registered:May 2006 Location: Germany |
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About switching to a different 2D rendering engine:
FIFE has discussed here quite a bit.. but one thing nobody has done.. why not simply go to their forums - FIFE - Game creators' corner - and ask them whether their engine would be well suited for this task and how much work they think this would be.
I am very sure that they'd be thrilled to know that their engine is considered to bring a well known game like Jagged Alliance 2 to a new modern look.
One thing should also be remembered here. their engine was originally designed as a modernized more flexible remake of the Fallout engine. Since fallout and JA2 are genre wise very related I really doubt that it would be so hard to make this work.
But as I already suggested.. why no simply ask the developers.
Edit: Well, thinking twice I took the liberty and just opened a thread there:
http://forums.fifengine.de/index.php?topic=116.0
[Updated on: Sun, 06 April 2008 18:59] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180683]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 12:53
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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birdflu
sure i'm interested to see that conversion. i think CNC gun has been inactive lately (very busy with job, etc...)
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180694]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 15:02
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BirdFlu |
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Messages:438
Registered:September 2007 Location: Lampukistan |
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Quote:http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=152399&page=1#Post152399
interessting thread (still reading)
here is a small example of a XML structure file : "tilesets\0\CAVHOLE.JSD.xml"
J2SD
<_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA
3
3
304
0
<_STRUCTURE>
0
0
0
6
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
0
0
0
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
0
0
-1
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
0
0
-2
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
0
-1
0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
0
-1
-1
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
0
-1
-2
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
10
8
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
1
0
0
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 15, 0, 15, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
2
7
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
2
0
0
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
4, 4, 7, 4, 4
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
While, i was dealing with writing the structure xml files, i thought i could do the same for maybe prof.dat or other .dat files.
The problem is that i can easily create these files, but i can't read (parse) them again. So they are of limited use right now.
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180727]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 18:30
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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jsd editors do exist, and the file you took as an example is rather a small entry there. That's why i fear working on larger files would be extremely hard.
current jsd editors can only load "normal" jsd's, not special jsd's like buildings, doors, animated objects, etc basicly everything out of the ordinary is currently not possible to do.
So maybe if the xml data would allow working on those files, that might give them a big edge.
But for a simple object, a jsd editor is probably way easier and faster to handle. Is it thinkable to have some sort of dual-system, where both a packed, human-unreadable .jsd file is supported as well as expanded, readable .xml texts?
probably very unelegant i guess ;-D
or maybe it's just a question of having a top notch jsd/xml editor tool along with these suggested xml's.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180734]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 19:23
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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for example, basefrn1.jsd in tileset 0 is a very generic file containing nothing special, a bunch of small items that can only be placed individually and have no relation whatsoever to each other
build_01.jsd, and, any "house" (labeling is usually build_"number""eventualletter".JSD) on the other hand is, in my terminology, a very complex .jsd as you have to be able to create a house using those, not just a single wall tile or a single piece of roof.
also, when certain tiles are destroyed, e.g. a wall, a different object from within the same .jsd will take its place, as opposed to "normal" jsd's, where the destruction partner is an structureless external graphic (without any jsd information linked to it)
intuitivly, there must be a lot of additional code/ different file structure/ info storage with these jsd files that with the other files because when builing houses in the editor or destroying houses ingame, much more complex actions must take place.
then next in the "0" tileset, "fence.jsd" is, if i remeber correctly, not loadable via editor and it must have that "fence" tag somewhere or "canjumpover" for certain structure objects which current editors don't display.
interestingly, sandbag.jsd can be loaded and edited, just the "canjumpoverobject" thing apparently can't be controled that way.
i never tried loading a cliff jsd but it may also have special data
roof_01.jsd, as well as any other roof, has special info to it as well, not loadable via current editors
satdish.jsd, which can be found for example in tileset 28 finally, is an animated tile that cannot be loaded either. It even has another .jsd file for its shadow, as the shadow is animated too.
i guess from a coder point of view, that terminology might not help at all, be misleading or whatnot. But logically/ intuitivly, there must be noteworthy differences between these files.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180735]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 19:28
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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i'd guess from the terms used that STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA is used for example in satdishs.jsd, while satdish.jsd has both, structure data and auxilliary image data?
and i think these types of jsd's are so far unsupported... at least i wouldn't know of a tool that could handle them, but others may know more than i do.
the STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA type jsd is probably the normal, by jsd editors supported type.
but that's just my guess based on the terminology.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180739]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 19:48
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BirdFlu |
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Messages:438
Registered:September 2007 Location: Lampukistan |
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I don't know, why the editor cannot handle all the types of data. They look all the same to me. I mean the flags are different but the rest has pretty much the same structure.
here is an example of : tilesets\28\SATDISH.JSD.xml
J2SD
<_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA
<_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA
10
10
10
480
0
<_AuxObjectData>
0
0
0
0
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
1
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
2
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
3
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
4
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
5
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
6
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
7
8
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
0
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
1
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
2
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
3
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
4
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
5
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
6
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
42
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
7
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
3, 3, 3, 3, 3
0, 3, 3, 3, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
8
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
8
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 0, 1, 0, 0
0, 0, 2, 0, 0
0, 2, 2, 2, 0
1, 0, 2, 1, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
<_STRUCTURE>
21
8
100
1
<_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC
<_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE
<_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES
<_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED
9
0
1
0
0
0
<_STRUCTURE_TILES>
0
0
0
0, 1, 0, 0, 0
0, 0, 2, 0, 0
0, 2, 2, 2, 1
0, 1, 2, 0, 0
0, 0, 0, 0, 0
0
I watch the files in the internet explorer, where i can fold or unfold single sections, so it doesn't look so cluttered.
I may me a little harder to work with viewers or editors that don't support folding.
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180742]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 20:01
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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then the editor doesn't support the flags (obviously i'm not a programmer so i'm already lost here)
but the terminology makes sense, satdish contains both the actual structure data (size of object, hitpoints, etc.) as well as the tie to other graphics (animated).
Makes perfect sense.
What about build_1.jsd or fence.jsd, do they also contain AUXIMAGEDATA? or auxobjectdata at least?
so, auximagedata is in fact more than just
<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE
my simplistic conception was way to shallow as it looks.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180761]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 22:25
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lisac |
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Messages:92
Registered:July 2006 Location: Austria |
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I have tried to contact CNC_gun, but he's not responding... Probably too busy in RL.
I guess BirdFlu scratched the surface of the problem with the graphic formats in JA2, congratulations for a good work (although it's just begin)!
I'm not a programmer (yeah, just a modder like the scorpion), but according to the complexity of the JSD files just presented, I'd say the parts of the graphic engine controlling them is just as complex as the files themselves (just a guess, of course). I mean, all those flags must be properly used and controlled, right? The good news is that we know more about the way JA2 draws and controls graphics than before.
I'll see if I can fork out a SVN branch for you BirdFlu, so you can keep working on your experiments and keep in touch with the public at the same time
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Corporal 1st Class
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180766]
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Thu, 10 April 2008 22:52
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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BirdFlu
Build01.jsd and Fence.jsd have both StructureData and AuxImageData. I will not post the contents of these files,
as they would look like the examples above just with different values, but i can upload all files somewhere so that
everyone can take a look at them.
okay. things start to fall together in place due to those enlightening comments. current editors probably work only for jsd that exclusivly contains structure data.
auximagedata is in that case everything that has to do with graphic frame dependencies within the same jsd. Every complex or animated jsd probably has them
i guess they will be the key for deciphering the more advanced jsd files and i'm very glad birdFlu is tackling those issues.
Lisac
i think that the impact that jsd's have on actual graphics is limited. Basicly the structuredata only jsd's have almost no impact on the graphics except for the destruction partner graphic (which can be edited using existing editors)
AuxImageData files however feature interdependencies and "rules" between graphics of the same file
Usually, these dependencies are quite clear, but also very complicated, especially when it comes to building compounds (animated graphics, switches and doors (trees? tees as well i think) are usually quite evident, first is the close door, then the slightly open door, then the wide open door etc.)
however, many a graphic designer might want to be able to tweak how many frames his animated tile has, what relations between the different frames there are etc.
there are still many ugly limitations in the tile engine itself, so there's another key issue there. I think chrisL was already scratching these issues when trying to add an Mdp4items file.
also, if you have alook at the tilesets/0 folder, you'll see plenty of files that would help modmakers/ designers to add things, and you can easily figure that more control over those, and addition of more such files could dramatically add to what's there right now.
for example, the destruction partner graphics for destroyed tiles currently are simply a multipage of graphics. If we'd just add a .JSD file to them, we could far better simulate the destruction of generic objects.
See, the auximagedata files often contain rules as to what happesn to them if destroyed.
the structuredata only files on the other hand, only feature such a "debris" graphic of choice with no structuredata reamining once the object is destroyed.
now imagine what happens if we could add structuredata to the objects that get generated when another object is destroyed. We could for example have a generic object like a pillar turn not to dust but into a smaller pillar. and then that pillar could fall into a bunch of rubble is destroyed and only once this bits are pulverized, there will be no more structure data.
if auximagedata entries can do such, maybe their functionality can be used for a HUGELY more interactive map design.
but this example is from the tile engine itself. Another example would be added bullet holes and blood decals on walls.
but i stray off the topic. I guess when it comes to a more versatile engine, the auximagedata section and the functions in there could hold blueprints for very interesting things to be achieved.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183588]
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Wed, 30 April 2008 23:21
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lisac |
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Messages:92
Registered:July 2006 Location: Austria |
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Time to bring this topic back to life.
I received a PM from PFM a few minutes ago. He recommends using different animation sets for different weapons, in other words using existing sprites, just adding them extra animation set(s) depending on the weapon they're using. I've been thinking about this possibility for two weeks, but didn't want to post anything about it before I do some calculations...
Speaking of those, I think the new animation sets would bring more "weight" to the current graphical content, extending it to hundreds of MBs of data. Although this shouldn't be much of a problem today, I guess it's worth mentioning as a drawback.
The greatest advantage would be coding this feature, since the current graphic engine should be forced to "switch" between animations (sets, respectively) according to the weapon equipped, which is far away easier than adapting it to represent layered sprites...
Oh, one more question: any restrictions in the filenames? Can we use more than 8 chars for the filenames (highly recommended feature for adding extra animation sets)?
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Corporal 1st Class
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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183592]
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Wed, 30 April 2008 23:35
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the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004 Location: CH |
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the scorpion
it deals with different long (two-handed) weapon animations
from left to right:
1. AK, 2. Submachinegun (e.g. MP5), 3. bullpup assault rifle (e.g. FAMAS, 4. Shotgun (note larger muzzle flash), 5. sniper rifle with scope (maybe like the M24), 6. GPMG (could be a PKM or such)
just think the coat wasn't there ;-D
Lisac
i think you shouldn't think about "all" animations necessary for new weapon classes. If you think of a typical battle, there is only a few animations that are used often and that focus on the gun, these are limited to basicly shooting, standing idle and running/ walking.
The weapons in most other animations are not very prominent and wouldn't be shown much in battles so for a long time, placholder could be used there.
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Sergeant Major
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