Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Tools and Guides Repository (Archive) » Improving Original JA2 graphics
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180018] Thu, 03 April 2008 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berserk00644 is currently offline Berserk00644

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2008
this is all getting to be a bit big for me... i'm still learing MS paint Sad(
anywayif we wanted faster results how hard would it be to recolor the mercs i.e. make the hands one color, forearms another and shoulders a third??? so if a merc has a black shirt on make the value of all those colors black except the hands? could this work for the armor? then maybe we could find a way to add hats? i think for the current LOD this would work fine... and yes i would be alot of work but lees then a 5 year project!

also maybe instead of worryin' bout the guns looking different, maybe we could add more to the game like better explosions, dogs? alot of patrols use them IRL, claymores? different vehicles, choppers
the list goes on... one thing i would really like to see is mercs dragging wounded mercs to safety
or enemys for that matter, i think this would add to the game play greatly... maybe even make it worth your effort to heal enemy soldiers? maybe 10% they'll give you info on enemy sam sites or somthing?

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Private
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180019] Thu, 03 April 2008 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Now one thing nearly everyone is forgetting is map creation. If we do manage to replace the sti format (god I hope so!) then we also have to contend with the JSD format for tiles. This holds the data regarding cover and height. They are a b*tch to work with too. We possibly need to either make them more user friendly or externalise the data so we can set heights and coverages separately.

As for the 2D, 3D argument well its all bonkers. The 2D can look great (as shown by that pic earlier), but then so can 3D. I for one would love to see 3D implemented with a proper physics engine too. That way you can have bullet trajectory, drop off, deviation, damage vs distance, hitting objects in the way, etc...
To be against it because it won't be JA2 is kinda silly. Things evolve and if you play vanilla and then 1.13, you will notice 1.13 is a new game in its own right anyway. Very different and contains the features that the community wanted. I personally can't play vanilla anymore, its too boring!

And I am now too tired to continue typing. Will talk later...

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180040] Thu, 03 April 2008 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Kaerar
...then we also have to contend with the JSD format for tiles.

I agree totally. We need all the (technical) info about STI and JSD files we can get.

Volunteers?

Please write it down in this thread and I'll update it in the design document.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180043] Thu, 03 April 2008 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
I don't think changing image format from .sti will require anything more than exporting all images to .bmp than converting to whatever format is agreed upon. Sure, this will be tedious work and long hours but that's all there is to it as far as I can see.

Changing to 3d will require rewriting all the graphics for almost to none improvement. Simply put, if the idea can be done in 2d isometric why not start on this NOW. We can always switch format later but if this idea loses momentum it will never happen.

I don't see any advantage to bigger sprites except the ability to get more detail. If I thought more detail was essential to this project I might consider the bigger sprites issue. But you have to remember, with bigger sprites comes a smaller map view. I know for higher resolution this may not be an issue but what about those of us who don't play on maximum res?

I'd like to see this idea happen with minimal complications. That means keep it simple sweathogs.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180081] Fri, 04 April 2008 02:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
Khor1255
I don't think changing image format from .sti will require anything more than exporting all images to .bmp than converting to whatever
format is agreed upon. Sure, this will be tedious work and long hours but that's all there is to it as far as I can see.

Starwalker
"If it was easy, then someone else would have done it already"

Well, first you have to convert the sti files to some other format. Then you need a loader for that special file type to get
the image data into the game. And when you have the data loaded, you have to render it somehow. And here comes the problem.
The blitting functions of the current rendering engine require the STI's special ETRLE format, so you would have to
change the blitters too, and that is inline assembler code. And as far as i noticed nobody wants to get involved with
assembler code. But if we are going to change/replace the rendering engine, then this problem should disappear automatically
(more or less).

lisac
We need all the (technical) info about STI and JSD files we can get.

What exactly would you consider as "technical" info? The bitwise locations of every data-'object' in the file or the 'compression'-algorithm or something else?
Anyway, i think i can give that info for STI files, as i already handled them. I can't say much about JSD files,but i am at the point where i am starting to look into them.
What would also be interesting is a description of the map format, maybe a rough overview for a start.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180084] Fri, 04 April 2008 06:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berserk00644 is currently offline Berserk00644

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2008
im not sure i'll be much help from this point out seeing that im new to all this
but i must agree there nothing wrong with 2d if its modernized
in fact i really like the idea of keeping it 2d... if i wanted somthing else i'd play somthing else
and yes vanilla JA2 is nothing like 1.13 but thats from a gameplay pov.
i also think that with the available 3d moddels out there that converting them to 2d would be alot easyer then most think. we could use any number of games out there (COD4 BF2 CS:S Rainbow six vegas and vegas 2 Ghost recon games etc etc etc) plus there are plenty of 2d games we could use

but 2d seems to be the way most of us want to go just better 2d



P.S. i agree lets do somthing already... i'll help however i can, just don't expect much i got 2 kids both under 5 and a FT job Smile

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Private
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180098] Fri, 04 April 2008 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
BirdFlu
What exactly would you consider as "technical" info? The bitwise locations of every data-'object' in the file or the 'compression'-algorithm or something else?

Yes, something like that. I thought someone on the board should give you a hand with the formats, that's all. However:
BirdFlu
Anyway, i think i can give that info for STI files, as i already handled them. I can't say much about JSD files,but i am at the point where i am starting to look into them.

I see you're getting along just fine with those formats Smile
BirdFlu
What would also be interesting is a description of the map format, maybe a rough overview for a start.

OK people, you heard the man...

I'm signing out for the next few days, sorry.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180317] Sun, 06 April 2008 17:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zed is currently offline zed

 
Messages:42
Registered:November 2006
there is a guy named CNC gun - he gave a stunning lecture on the JSD engine and it seems he knows best this part of the code. i recommend contacting him in PM to give his inputs and advise.

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180321] Sun, 06 April 2008 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KeldorKatarn is currently offline KeldorKatarn

 
Messages:37
Registered:May 2006
Location: Germany
About switching to a different 2D rendering engine:

FIFE has discussed here quite a bit.. but one thing nobody has done.. why not simply go to their forums - FIFE - Game creators' corner - and ask them whether their engine would be well suited for this task and how much work they think this would be.

I am very sure that they'd be thrilled to know that their engine is considered to bring a well known game like Jagged Alliance 2 to a new modern look.
One thing should also be remembered here. their engine was originally designed as a modernized more flexible remake of the Fallout engine. Since fallout and JA2 are genre wise very related I really doubt that it would be so hard to make this work.
But as I already suggested.. why no simply ask the developers.


Edit: Well, thinking twice I took the liberty and just opened a thread there:

http://forums.fifengine.de/index.php?topic=116.0

[Updated on: Sun, 06 April 2008 18:59] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #180472] Tue, 08 April 2008 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
guys, one thing i want you to take into consideration when planning on a new/improved graphics engine, would be the following features, from which every future mod would greatly benefit:

1. multiple height levels to allow for trenches, 2 story buildings and cliffs/slopes

2. destroyable and animateable light sources (spotlights).


furthermore, i think it would probably be a good idea, to make a community-wide poll, on which route to take. i.e.:

1. try to improve JA2 original engine

2. make complete new 2D engine

3. use new 3D engine

4. use a combination of 2D engine with 3D engine for characters

5. use FIFE engine

let the people decide or at least take their wishes into consideration.

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180492] Tue, 08 April 2008 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Well, you should join the FIFE forum and ask there if the engine supports multiple hight leves and destroyable light etc. The devs of the engine can surely answer these questions.

Well, a poll would be fine, but I guess the poll wouldnt hardly representative because not every JA2 player is here in the forums and not everyone who is in Bears Pit will answer the poll etc.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180494] Tue, 08 April 2008 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KeldorKatarn is currently offline KeldorKatarn

 
Messages:37
Registered:May 2006
Location: Germany
I'd rather go for a poll among the senior players and specially among the developers,since after all it is them who have to implement it. It doesn't make much sense to ask for the development of a completely new 3d engine (a no-go in my opinion anyway since such a thing takes years) if the developers cannot do it.

About the features.. the FIFE guys already told us that they are open for such questions and would really like to know what we expect from the engine. Stuff like multiple levels and movable lights is certainly something they might like to hear about. Whether their engine can do it yet or not I don't know.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180542] Tue, 08 April 2008 16:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Well, thats also true. I just hope that if they coose FIFE, a lot of problems and limitatons vanish that the makesrs of te mod have to deal with a the time. Like the bigger maps thing or the idea to be able to hire more Mercs etc.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180553] Tue, 08 April 2008 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daecraban is currently offline Daecraban
Messages:2
Registered:April 2008
Location: Germany
Hi Guys!
Im new here!
But i

[Updated on: Tue, 08 April 2008 18:16] by Moderator

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Civilian
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180664] Thu, 10 April 2008 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
I was trying to understand the .JSD file format. But looking for some values of a given file in the debugger
is not really convenient, and so i converted all JSD files to XML files. I'm not sure whether the conversion
was correct, but maybe someone who worked with structure data can look into the files and tell me if something
is wrong. I'm especially not sure about the flags, because they are defined as #define expressions and
their connection to the different data structures is done by name (or not?).

Anyway, has anyone a need for these files, and if yes, where should i upload them?

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180672] Thu, 10 April 2008 08:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zed is currently offline zed

 
Messages:42
Registered:November 2006
PM CNC gun and look in this thread:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=152399&page=1#Post152399
this explains some of the things you are dealing with

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180683] Thu, 10 April 2008 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
birdflu

sure i'm interested to see that conversion. i think CNC gun has been inactive lately (very busy with job, etc...)

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180694] Thu, 10 April 2008 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
Quote:
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=152399&page=1#Post152399

interessting thread (still reading)

here is a small example of a XML structure file : "tilesets\0\CAVHOLE.JSD.xml"

  
     J2SD 
    
      <_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA 
    
     3 
     3 
     304 
     0 
  
  
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         6 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
        
           0 
           0 
           -1 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
        
           0 
           0 
           -2 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
        
           0 
           -1 
           0 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
        
           0 
           -1 
           -1 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
        
           0 
           -1 
           -2 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         10 
         8 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 15, 0, 15, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         2 
         7 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         2 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             4, 4, 7, 4, 4 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
  



While, i was dealing with writing the structure xml files, i thought i could do the same for maybe prof.dat or other .dat files.
The problem is that i can easily create these files, but i can't read (parse) them again. So they are of limited use right now.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180711] Thu, 10 April 2008 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
wow

that's awfully long for such a small .jsd file *omg*

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180719] Thu, 10 April 2008 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
Quote:
that's awfully long for such a small .jsd file *omg*

Well, that is the problem with xml files vs. binary files, they tend to be huge. The amount of information is small, but all the surrounding tags make it so long.
And your program can't read these files "just so", it has to parse them (more or less slowly). But xml files are "human readable" (really?) and can be changed/processed
with a simple text editor. I think for modders it is still a good thing, as they don't have to rely on some binary editors (which may not even exist).

Edit : all converted xml files take around *** 40 Mbyte *** in total, but only around 2 Mbyte when compressed

[Updated on: Thu, 10 April 2008 18:02] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180727] Thu, 10 April 2008 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
jsd editors do exist, and the file you took as an example is rather a small entry there. That's why i fear working on larger files would be extremely hard.

current jsd editors can only load "normal" jsd's, not special jsd's like buildings, doors, animated objects, etc basicly everything out of the ordinary is currently not possible to do.

So maybe if the xml data would allow working on those files, that might give them a big edge.
But for a simple object, a jsd editor is probably way easier and faster to handle. Is it thinkable to have some sort of dual-system, where both a packed, human-unreadable .jsd file is supported as well as expanded, readable .xml texts?

probably very unelegant i guess ;-D

or maybe it's just a question of having a top notch jsd/xml editor tool along with these suggested xml's.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180730] Thu, 10 April 2008 18:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
The .jsd or .xml file is just a representation of structure data on disc. Internally you still use the given data structures.
Changing the way how to read or write data is not that big of a deal, but if the jsd-editor can't show the non-normal files, their
xml representaion won't help either. Then the gui of the editor has to be changed.

BTW, what is a normal jsd? I've seen files that hava the flag STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA
or STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA or both.

As i create the xml files automatically, i have not looked into all of them, so maybe something went wrong somewhere. The files that
CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA look half-empty to me and have no flag most of the time, but maybe that's the way they should be.
Can you give me some examples of normal and non-normal jsd's?

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180734] Thu, 10 April 2008 19:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
for example, basefrn1.jsd in tileset 0 is a very generic file containing nothing special, a bunch of small items that can only be placed individually and have no relation whatsoever to each other

build_01.jsd, and, any "house" (labeling is usually build_"number""eventualletter".JSD) on the other hand is, in my terminology, a very complex .jsd as you have to be able to create a house using those, not just a single wall tile or a single piece of roof.

also, when certain tiles are destroyed, e.g. a wall, a different object from within the same .jsd will take its place, as opposed to "normal" jsd's, where the destruction partner is an structureless external graphic (without any jsd information linked to it)

intuitivly, there must be a lot of additional code/ different file structure/ info storage with these jsd files that with the other files because when builing houses in the editor or destroying houses ingame, much more complex actions must take place.

then next in the "0" tileset, "fence.jsd" is, if i remeber correctly, not loadable via editor and it must have that "fence" tag somewhere or "canjumpover" for certain structure objects which current editors don't display.

interestingly, sandbag.jsd can be loaded and edited, just the "canjumpoverobject" thing apparently can't be controled that way.

i never tried loading a cliff jsd but it may also have special data

roof_01.jsd, as well as any other roof, has special info to it as well, not loadable via current editors

satdish.jsd, which can be found for example in tileset 28 finally, is an animated tile that cannot be loaded either. It even has another .jsd file for its shadow, as the shadow is animated too.


i guess from a coder point of view, that terminology might not help at all, be misleading or whatnot. But logically/ intuitivly, there must be noteworthy differences between these files.




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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180735] Thu, 10 April 2008 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
i'd guess from the terms used that STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA is used for example in satdishs.jsd, while satdish.jsd has both, structure data and auxilliary image data?

and i think these types of jsd's are so far unsupported... at least i wouldn't know of a tool that could handle them, but others may know more than i do.

the STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA type jsd is probably the normal, by jsd editors supported type.
but that's just my guess based on the terminology.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180739] Thu, 10 April 2008 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
I don't know, why the editor cannot handle all the types of data. They look all the same to me. I mean the flags are different but the rest has pretty much the same structure.

here is an example of : tilesets\28\SATDISH.JSD.xml

  
     J2SD 
    
      <_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA 
      <_flag> STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA 
    
     10 
     10 
     10 
     480 
     0 
  
  
    <_AuxObjectData>
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         1 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         2 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         3 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         4 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         5 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         6 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         7 
         8 
        
          <_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE 
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
        
        
      
      
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
         0 
        
        
      
    
  
  
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         0 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         1 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         2 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         3 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         4 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         5 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         6 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         42 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         7 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             3, 3, 3, 3, 3 
             0, 3, 3, 3, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         8 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         8 
         0 
         1 
         0 
         0 
         0 
      
      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
           0 
          
             0, 0, 1, 0, 0 
             0, 0, 2, 0, 0 
             0, 2, 2, 2, 0 
             1, 0, 2, 1, 0 
             0, 0, 0, 0, 0 
          
          
          
           0 
        
      
    
    <_STRUCTURE>
      
         21 
         8 
         100 
         1 
        
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_GENERIC 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_OBSTACLE 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_BLOCKSMOVES 
          <_flag> STRUCTURE_TYPE_DEFINED 
        
         9 
         0 
         1 
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      <_STRUCTURE_TILES>
        
           0 
           0 
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             0, 1, 0, 0, 0 
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           0 
        
      
    
  


I watch the files in the internet explorer, where i can fold or unfold single sections, so it doesn't look so cluttered.
I may me a little harder to work with viewers or editors that don't support folding.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180742] Thu, 10 April 2008 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
then the editor doesn't support the flags (obviously i'm not a programmer so i'm already lost here)

but the terminology makes sense, satdish contains both the actual structure data (size of object, hitpoints, etc.) as well as the tie to other graphics (animated).

Makes perfect sense.

What about build_1.jsd or fence.jsd, do they also contain AUXIMAGEDATA? or auxobjectdata at least?


so, auximagedata is in fact more than just

<_flag> AUX_ANIMATED_TILE

my simplistic conception was way to shallow as it looks.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180751] Thu, 10 April 2008 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
You have one or two flags in the header of the file (STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA, STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA).

With flag "STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_AUXIMAGEDATA" you have as many "AuxObjectData" sections as is said in "usNumberOfImages" (see header)
and as many "RelTileLoc" sections as said in "usNumberOfImageTileLocsStored".

With flag "STRUCTURE_FILE_CONTAINS_STRUCTUREDATA" you have as many "_STRUCTURE" sections as said in "usNumberOfStructures" or
"usNumberOfStructuresStored" (these two differ sometimes, not sure why).
Each "_STRUCTURE" section contains one "DB_STRUCTURE" section and several "DB_STRUCTURE_TILE" sections.

Build01.jsd and Fence.jsd have both StructureData and AuxImageData. I will not post the contents of these files,
as they would look like the examples above just with different values, but i can upload all files somewhere so that
everyone can take a look at them.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #180753] Thu, 10 April 2008 21:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Well, I

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180761] Thu, 10 April 2008 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
I have tried to contact CNC_gun, but he's not responding... Probably too busy in RL.

I guess BirdFlu scratched the surface of the problem with the graphic formats in JA2, congratulations for a good work (although it's just begin)!

I'm not a programmer (yeah, just a modder like the scorpion), but according to the complexity of the JSD files just presented, I'd say the parts of the graphic engine controlling them is just as complex as the files themselves (just a guess, of course). I mean, all those flags must be properly used and controlled, right? The good news is that we know more about the way JA2 draws and controls graphics than before.

I'll see if I can fork out a SVN branch for you BirdFlu, so you can keep working on your experiments and keep in touch with the public at the same time Wink

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180764] Thu, 10 April 2008 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
OK, here are the files
http://www.plunder.com/xml-structure-files-download-125609.htm

Quote:
I'll see if I can fork out a SVN branch for you BirdFlu, so you can keep working on your experiments and keep in touch with the public at the same time

Well, i'm not working on THE code. I am pulling files or classes or functions that i need from the 1.13 project and put them in an own project(, that is far away from being a game).
So i try keep the size of the project small and manageable, but with the latest additions it seems that i partially failed my intentions.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180766] Thu, 10 April 2008 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
BirdFlu

Build01.jsd and Fence.jsd have both StructureData and AuxImageData. I will not post the contents of these files,
as they would look like the examples above just with different values, but i can upload all files somewhere so that
everyone can take a look at them.



okay. things start to fall together in place due to those enlightening comments. current editors probably work only for jsd that exclusivly contains structure data.

auximagedata is in that case everything that has to do with graphic frame dependencies within the same jsd. Every complex or animated jsd probably has them

i guess they will be the key for deciphering the more advanced jsd files and i'm very glad birdFlu is tackling those issues.

Lisac

i think that the impact that jsd's have on actual graphics is limited. Basicly the structuredata only jsd's have almost no impact on the graphics except for the destruction partner graphic (which can be edited using existing editors)

AuxImageData files however feature interdependencies and "rules" between graphics of the same file

Usually, these dependencies are quite clear, but also very complicated, especially when it comes to building compounds (animated graphics, switches and doors (trees? tees as well i think) are usually quite evident, first is the close door, then the slightly open door, then the wide open door etc.)

however, many a graphic designer might want to be able to tweak how many frames his animated tile has, what relations between the different frames there are etc.

there are still many ugly limitations in the tile engine itself, so there's another key issue there. I think chrisL was already scratching these issues when trying to add an Mdp4items file.

also, if you have alook at the tilesets/0 folder, you'll see plenty of files that would help modmakers/ designers to add things, and you can easily figure that more control over those, and addition of more such files could dramatically add to what's there right now.

for example, the destruction partner graphics for destroyed tiles currently are simply a multipage of graphics. If we'd just add a .JSD file to them, we could far better simulate the destruction of generic objects.

See, the auximagedata files often contain rules as to what happesn to them if destroyed.

the structuredata only files on the other hand, only feature such a "debris" graphic of choice with no structuredata reamining once the object is destroyed.
now imagine what happens if we could add structuredata to the objects that get generated when another object is destroyed. We could for example have a generic object like a pillar turn not to dust but into a smaller pillar. and then that pillar could fall into a bunch of rubble is destroyed and only once this bits are pulverized, there will be no more structure data.

if auximagedata entries can do such, maybe their functionality can be used for a HUGELY more interactive map design.

but this example is from the tile engine itself. Another example would be added bullet holes and blood decals on walls.

but i stray off the topic. I guess when it comes to a more versatile engine, the auximagedata section and the functions in there could hold blueprints for very interesting things to be achieved.






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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #180776] Fri, 11 April 2008 00:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu is currently offline BirdFlu

 
Messages:438
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
I was looking into the AUXIMAGEDATA files. The "AuxObjectData" sections are referencing "RelTileLoc" sections via "usTileLocIndex",
but if you want to find any specific section, you have to count them. So i thought i could add an explicit index number to the "RelTileLoc" sections.
These indices are not explicitely stored in the actual jsd files, but they could really help to find the correct referenced sections.
What do you guys think?

Edit : I am 100% sure that "usTileLocIndex"-values are actually references, as not all numbers between 0 and valueof(usTileLocIndex) appear in the file.
But the are some modifications in the code that change the value of mentioned variable, so maybe then all 'RelTileLoc's can/will be referenced.
Anyway, could someone confirm that my assumptions are valid?

[Updated on: Fri, 11 April 2008 00:36] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183588] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Time to bring this topic back to life.

I received a PM from PFM a few minutes ago. He recommends using different animation sets for different weapons, in other words using existing sprites, just adding them extra animation set(s) depending on the weapon they're using. I've been thinking about this possibility for two weeks, but didn't want to post anything about it before I do some calculations...

Speaking of those, I think the new animation sets would bring more "weight" to the current graphical content, extending it to hundreds of MBs of data. Although this shouldn't be much of a problem today, I guess it's worth mentioning as a drawback.

The greatest advantage would be coding this feature, since the current graphic engine should be forced to "switch" between animations (sets, respectively) according to the weapon equipped, which is far away easier than adapting it to represent layered sprites...

Oh, one more question: any restrictions in the filenames? Can we use more than 8 chars for the filenames (highly recommended feature for adding extra animation sets)?

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183591] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Thanx for bringing this one back up man.


My first question is would it be possible to implement one layer at a time?


For instance, if we could start with different weapon classes being illustrated differently I think this would go a long way towards

a) improving the look and feel of the game (it blows when you can't see a difference between an smg and a long rifle)
b) add enough interest to get momentum rolling on the rest of this excellent idea.


I have a feeling the first task might be to remove all weapon illustration from some existing sprites so you can use the same sprite to hold an smg, a rifle and a long rifle.


Whatever the weight, I think this idea has so much potential it is worth it.


And you are right, todays computers will hardly bat an ion at the increased weight. Still, every effort should be made to streamline animations if for no other reason than to speed up the end product.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183592] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
the scorpion


http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6656/longguntypesja9.png


it deals with different long (two-handed) weapon animations

from left to right:

1. AK, 2. Submachinegun (e.g. MP5), 3. bullpup assault rifle (e.g. FAMAS, 4. Shotgun (note larger muzzle flash), 5. sniper rifle with scope (maybe like the M24), 6. GPMG (could be a PKM or such)



just think the coat wasn't there ;-D

Lisac

i think you shouldn't think about "all" animations necessary for new weapon classes. If you think of a typical battle, there is only a few animations that are used often and that focus on the gun, these are limited to basicly shooting, standing idle and running/ walking.

The weapons in most other animations are not very prominent and wouldn't be shown much in battles so for a long time, placholder could be used there.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183599] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
With the layered idea we don't even need whole new sets of full animations. Most of the frame would be background colour so I think the files would be smaller than each animation they effect anyway.

But in any event, with layers you can make this happen a lot faster.


@scorp

I had not seen those before.

They look very cool.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183600] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
I would start with weapons first because there isn't too many animations compared to "normal behaviour"(walk, run, breath etc.) And on the other hand we could see result, if it worth trying to - "can you see difference at current resolution?"

but first thing first - is here a coder or coderess Very Happy for answering a few questions?

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183602] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
Khor1255
With the layered idea we don't even need whole new sets of full animations. Most of the frame would be background colour so I think the files would be smaller than each animation they effect anyway.

But in any event, with layers you can make this happen a lot faster.


we all know that but layers would involve a lot of coding. I can't do it. Can someone else?

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183606] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Adding new animations also requires coding.

Besides, the game already/ sort of/ adds layers in the way it adds colours to sprites.

Maybe some borrowed code here?

In any event, something that can cut down on the workload is worth exploring.


Coders?

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #183608] Thu, 01 May 2008 00:23 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
PFM is currently offline PFM

 
Messages:22
Registered:July 2006
Location: Czech Republic
Khor1255
Adding new animations also requires coding.


true! but I think it requires less coding than layers. But I never saw the source code so I may be wrong

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Private 1st Class
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