BP Logo
Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Tools and Guides Repository (Archive) » Improving Original JA2 graphics
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #178888] Sat, 22 March 2008 23:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

So, all we need is somone who can code, is that right? And we talk about c++ coding etc.? Well, then why not ask around in the specefic community? There should be somone who can code. Mod DB has a big forum, there should be somone who has the knowledge of coding.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #178894] Sun, 23 March 2008 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Without proper financial support, such a project would vanish in no time. Trust me.

Please people, get back to topic. If someone wants to discuss possible 3D conversion of the game, please do it in the proper thread - thanks in advance.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #178895] Sun, 23 March 2008 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arethusa

 
Messages:26
Registered:August 2006
Location: Connecticut

I don't think it's any more likely to disappear than what you're suggesting. I think they end up being about the same amount of work (which is certainly quite a bit), unless there's a already been lot of progress with redoing JA2's sprites that I'm not aware of.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #178900] Sun, 23 March 2008 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
The sprite system can be adapted pretty easily, its the introduction and editing of sprites that is time consuming.

As for the Crysis SDK being useless, well yes it is at the moment. BUT if you got to the 3D threads you will find that the Far Cry SDK is well advanced and a very useable tool. The biggest hurdles would be introducing the Strategic frontend and then linking it to all the maps, then getting the game to turn based mode.

Stalker has one of the better ballistics engines hence why I mentioned it. It doesn't have much in the way of an SDK as the game and engine are very new. It will get better if people show interest in modding it.

UT3 is a great engine but again the source is pretty hard to come by without your own private bank!

Q3 engine is solid reliable and old now.

Source is crap.

Anyway as lisac said lets take this to the 3D forums.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #178906] Sun, 23 March 2008 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arethusa

 
Messages:26
Registered:August 2006
Location: Connecticut

Fair enough, but sticking on topic, how is redoing the sprites at all manageable? I haven't done much work with sprites, but pretty much everything I know about it makes this sound like a pretty gargantuan task (not in terms of coding; I'm talking about content creation).
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #178908] Sun, 23 March 2008 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Setting it up in the way that lisac outlined in the beginning of this thread would help for flexibility, but I agree that the amount of work needed is massive. Especially as all models have to be made in 3D then captured at the right angle and position for each frame. Makes life very hard when you have 6 different body types and hundreds of different weapons and poses. If a team got onto doing it (say 4-5 people) then it would be a 3-6 month job to overhaul the whole lot and add the missing anims. With one person doing it you are looking at 2-3 years.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179051] Tue, 25 March 2008 14:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx

 
Messages:43
Registered:February 2007
So it's a massive amount of work. Can we have shortcuts? I mean, if there are 6 body types, could it be cut down to 3 (slim fem & male merc and bodybuilder merc) and make every character in the game use those body types (except bloodcats, creps and kids of course)?
Same for armor and weapons. Is it really necessary to recreate every weapon and armor graphic or could it be limited to, say, 3-6 models per item class, meaning 3-6 pistol, rifle, assault rifle, SMG, MG, shotgun etc.. models; 3-6 legging, vest, helmet models?


Pistols: short barrel pistol, long barrel pistol (2)
Revolvers: ditto, but revolvers (2)
SMGs: Uzi/Mac-10 type, MP5 type, P90... anything else? (3)
Rifles: rifle or a scoped (sniper) rifle (2)
Ass. rifles: M4/M16 type, AK type, Steyr, Groza (4)
Shotguns: buttstockless pump-action, street sweeper, USAS-12 (the drum magazine), other two (SPAS-15 and M870) could use rifle M4 and rifle models (5)
MGs: FN Minimi, RPD... (2)


I mean really, from a distance, how accurately can you make out what kind of weapon the other guy is using? Oh well.. I suppose underbarrel grenade launchers, scopes and suppressors should be visible too.
On a related note, I (and probably few others), would be happy to NOT see certain animations, like the ludicrous karatekid-esque martial arts finishing move and the strong merc firing an assault rifle with one arm stretched out.
Edit: Edited last sentence a bit. Not fast enough though.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 March 2008 14:46] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179052] Tue, 25 March 2008 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3805
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
On a related note, I (and probably few others), would be happy to NOT see certain animations, like the ludicrous karatekid-esque martial arts finishing move and the strong merc firing a 2-handed firearm with one hand


well , it gave me a laugh , the game IS supposed to be fun :armsfolded:


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #179053] Tue, 25 March 2008 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Kaerar
Setting it up in the way that lisac outlined in the beginning of this thread would help for flexibility, but I agree that the amount of work needed is massive. Especially as all models have to be made in 3D then captured at the right angle and position for each frame. Makes life very hard when you have 6 different body types and hundreds of different weapons and poses. If a team got onto doing it (say 4-5 people) then it would be a 3-6 month job to overhaul the whole lot and add the missing anims. With one person doing it you are looking at 2-3 years.


Well, yeah, so in short, we need a sperated mod team that works on the graphics. I just ask me where we could find people willing to do it....

Well, you also want to give children adult bodies then, or what? We need the 6 body types so we have a real diffrence in the look. Same goes for weapons and armor. The idea is that you can tell from a single look what they merc/solider/xivillan wears and is armned with. Limitng it would create the same effect we have now: a "one-fits-all" graphic and I think thats not the idea.

The idea is, to re-do the graphics so it looks better and finally can see the diffrence between the equitment.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179056] Tue, 25 March 2008 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sphinx

 
Messages:43
Registered:February 2007
I'd remove the kids completely for now. Maybe add them later if someone really really wants to see kids running for their lives during combat or worse.
I was trying to come up with a middle-ground option (compromise) for creating every single piece of equipment. You really want to have different graphics for all the dozens of AK variants? A merc on my screen appears now about 1 inch tall. How far does a person has to stand so that he appears 1 inch tall? 50 meters? 100 meters? See that assault rifle he's carrying? The best you should be able to make out is if that rifle is an AK or M16, whether it has a scope or an underbarrel GL.
As for the civilians, let them have their clothes... sleeveless shirt, t-shirt or a jacket? Maybe add a baseball or a fedora? Skirts for the ladies? How much do you want?

Edit:
If it's the weapon/armor info you want quickly, maybe request tooltips on mouseover revealing exactly the equipment a character is wearing? That's been done already though. Visually identifying -exactly- what the other guy is wearing requires close proximity, binoculars or a rifle scope. And that the target stays relatively still.

[Updated on: Tue, 25 March 2008 14:48] by Moderator

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #179060] Tue, 25 March 2008 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc

 
Messages:34
Registered:April 2006
Location: Germany

Thing is, I can see it coming that the gun nuts here on the boards start ranting about the fact that thier merc carries a M60 but the in game graphic shows a M249 SAW etc.

At least I would like to see what my Merc carries.

Say, I rember that we had a similar thread some years ago. I rember that I suggested or at least asked, if it wouldnt be possible to import some graphics from the Fallout series. THe graphics are similar and these games had lots of detail at least regarding the Player and NPC modles/spirtes in the game. Maybe that would be a option.

I still dont understand really why SirTech used that old graphic base anyway, while games like Shadow Company existed that had full 3D polygon engines. It would have made things a lot easier if JA2 would use something similar, then its not much of a problem to use 3D Max models and convert them into the eninge then. Anyway, that is just a side note from me.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179065] Tue, 25 March 2008 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
if you look at ja2 1.13 and see the hundreds of items and guns, i'd have to say that it is probably faster not having to model/ skin hundreds of objects for little gain.

i suggest everybody to have a look at animations.slf just so you guys know what level of detail we're talking about here.

also i suggest having a look at older animation-themed threads for example of how little variation is possible at all given then engine


so what can be done is have one gun sprite for each weapon class. that is something i wouldn't rule out. But i think that none here is ready to invest months of freetime for it, not even the gun-nutties gun-nut.

we should especially forget armour, clothing, gear whatever becasue this is used in each animation, while weapons are only used in a limited number of animations (still too many for most of us to ever deliver anything)

so different weapons is from an artist point of view not unthinkable. But then somebody would have to draw it and somebody would have to code it and we have neither ;-/

plus it would mean even more restriction. The more anims are added, the more works it is to add new things or overwrite any existing stuff. On that subjects, there's various animations already in the animations.slf that are unused. So if nobody bothers to code them into the game, how can we expect people to bother about this at all anyway.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179067] Tue, 25 March 2008 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Obscuritan

 
Messages:10
Registered:May 2007
It's pretty safe to assume that the original JA2 devs made the sprites by animated 3d characters and converting them to 2d sprites, right? I think that's what they did for Diablo and such as well, made 3d models of the characters, put them in a fixed isometric angle, played the animation and dumped each frame to an image file.

Maybe the key to improving JA2 sprites is to get a talented 3d animator, and an automated process to dump the sprites, rather than the wasteful and often inaccurate hand-editing method.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179070] Tue, 25 March 2008 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
you'd require the model for this and the tool and a guy who does it.

it will still be much work because somewhere, the detail comes from. i'd like to see just ONE example of this method and i'd be cool with it.

i haven't seen anybody pulling it off, maybe this community being iso-game themed, lacks 3d pro's.



and please, if you compare this to diablo 2, then ja2's sprites are way beyond this detail level. You have them climbing fences/ roofs with dozens of frames per angle, you have them jump down the rope, fall down from roofs, this is not the typical diablo 2 generic minimalistic animation that only has breathing running and a generic slash with one hand and everything mirrored to the other side, this is ja2 and its animations are pieces of art EACH direction of each bodytype.


so even with a very efficient process, you'd have to be 100% behind this to get anywhere.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179071] Tue, 25 March 2008 17:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Khor1255
Although I can forsee some real nightmarish xy coordinate tweaking to get 'floating' armour and the like to look right I think this is a great idea.

No need for tweaking coordinates, since all the layers of one animation will be "fit" into one "master frame" (see the pics in my first post). The only problem would be amount of space taken by the new sprites, but I believe that, in terms of today's modern era computing, this would be acceptable.

Sphinx
So it's a massive amount of work.

Nobody said it isn't.

Sphinx
I suppose underbarrel grenade launchers, scopes and suppressors should be visible too.

Are you kidding me?

Sphinx
On a related note, I (and probably few others), would be happy to NOT see certain animations, like the ludicrous karatekid-esque martial arts finishing move and the strong merc firing an assault rifle with one arm stretched out.

On a related note, you've missed the point of the clich
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179074] Tue, 25 March 2008 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1821
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
If the frames exactly matched the existing ones (in terms of size) and the overlays were placed in the precise position in each frame you are correct. If not, I don't see how you would get around the xy tweaking.

I think we could do exact frame matches if there were a photoediting tool that easily switched between 'ghost' overlays and the actual image. I know there is a workaround with my photoediting tool but an easier way would sure be nice.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179110] Tue, 25 March 2008 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Actually there is an easy way to avoid xy tweaking. That it to have the same size frames for each frame and make sure you get the position of the sprite right each time (easy with the right tools). Only reason they did the xy tweaking was to save on valuable space by having smaller frames.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179129] Wed, 26 March 2008 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1821
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Do I hear an echo in here?


Just kidding. I know that is the way but the problem there is that you must position your overlay image animations in the exact pixel location for every frame instead of making a more generic 'cutout' overlay animation set that could be reused for several animations.

Also, getting the actual overlay animations to sit in the exact pixel location requires a function my photoediting program lacks.


Something like a mirror image drawing tool or a semi transparent overlay while you are working on the animation would go a long way toward speeding up the process if you had to do overlay sets for every animation in the game = a few years of part time or a full season at 40hrs per week in the best case scenerio.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179136] Wed, 26 March 2008 02:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Khor1255
Also, getting the actual overlay animations to sit in the exact pixel location requires a function my photoediting program lacks.

No worries, old wolf. Lightwave 3D alows work with layers, where certain objects (layers) can be turned on/off, blended in any manner you like, even edited and added/removed with ease. Post-processing sprites really shouldn't take that much time - once the sprites leave the LW3D, they should be (almost) ready for conversion and use.

This is what I meant when I've said "I can promise you a half-automated process and a moderate speed of doing it".
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179144] Wed, 26 March 2008 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1821
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Excellent. I'll try to get a copy.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179150] Wed, 26 March 2008 11:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Yeah LW is a great program. I need some more practice with it though. I was thinking maybe you could get hold of the models from some different FPS games like CoD 4 and such like to give a relatively realistic sizing to the body as they have all the kit needed to make full Ghillie cammo, SAS look, Marine, rag head (sorry terrorist), Soviet military etc...

Thats just CoD 4 too! Then of course you have BF2 et al to choose from for models. Dunno where to get martial arts from though. Maybe Max Payne with the Matrix mod?


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179191] Wed, 26 March 2008 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arethusa

 
Messages:26
Registered:August 2006
Location: Connecticut

I honestly have to say that I'm surprisingly fond of the idea of stealing CoD4's character models for this. Would save enormous amounts of time, and this project is non profit and really very, very low profile anyway.

To address a few things that have been raised so far, if the system is well set up someone has the right tools for this (which is more than being familiar with 3D content creation, which I am; doing sprites from 3D is a pretty specific skill and tool set), making attachments visible isn't really that hard. It's just a bit of additional tedium for each weapon, and I suppose it is a geometric increase, but it's not terribly worse than what you already have to deal with. The real difficulties, as far as I can see, are in animations, which you cannot take from another game and will need to both create, orient, and render. Far from simple. New gun models take a fair amount of time, but given the resolution (even if you were to increase the game's resolution significantly to 1600x1200 or something, which I think is a good idea), it's not that hard to make new, individual ones for every gun. It's the animations and the rendering setup that are hell; the rest, if it can be reasonably automated, will take a while, but isn't impossible. I think there's also a reasonable argument here that this might be a better idea than a new engine if everyone's pretty much waiting for JA3 so that that can be ripped apart and modded to 1.13 standards when its inevitable unimpressive release comes.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179215] Thu, 27 March 2008 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berserk00644

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2008
I'm afaid that we are losing focus on this subject. the way i see it we could go 3D we could get a new game engine and we could even make our own version of JA2 and call it something else. but lets face it we love JA2 for what it is(even with its stupid karate-chop action sprites) and sometimes it's nice to go back and play a good 2d game IMO they sometimes seem to have something that 3D games dont... solid artwork! it might not be top of the line graphics but it sure makes us love our mercs. im not saying all 3d games have weak artwork but some do.I really don't want to see a blockfaced Raven Smile

anyway if we want someone to really work on this we need a foundation... let's start small
i say we make a complete sprite set worth adding to the game (i.e. why not start with a sniper rifle or a shotgun seeing that there isn't one) if it works, and looks good maybe a coder will take the time to add it and maybe(given all the good ideas stated above)work on a way to add more guns,items,armor etc etc then the rest would be up to us, if we want it bad enough we will make it work! and if the coders see us working for it maybe they'll be a little more inclined to work on it too.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179216] Thu, 27 March 2008 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arethusa

 
Messages:26
Registered:August 2006
Location: Connecticut

It just does not work like that. There is no starting small with sprites. To even get to the point of putting a single weapon ingame, you need a near complete set of animations, and you need all of this to be fully rendered and dumped to sprite frames. Far from trivial. Coding is the least of your problems here.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179238] Thu, 27 March 2008 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
I see your point Arethusa, but what Lisac was proposing actually combated some of that problem. The original proposition was that we update the way the sprites work to a multi-layer version. Still can be used with STI's but easier with a format that can use Anti-Aliasing. If it was switched to PNG I would be a happy man! So much easier to work with, plus you can have soft edges and true transparency.

That would mean that adding a single gun would not mean a whole sprite set for each body type but a single gun added to the already existing multi-layered sprite setup (so you just get the M16, replace with a M24 in all positions and you are ready to go). This would be simpler especially if preference is given to sprite sections allowing you to place the whole image of a gun in its sprite section and the body obscures it properly when it should.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179258] Thu, 27 March 2008 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arethusa

 
Messages:26
Registered:August 2006
Location: Connecticut

Yeah, we really do need a switch to png, which should have happened a while ago. I loathe proprietary formats.

The problem with lisac's proposal is that it multilayering doesn't make things as easy as it may seem. Principally, it does absolutely nothing for the animation problem, and every weapon or carried object is going to need to be rendered for every animation frame, which, as you can imagine, is not pleasant. What it primarily helps with is animation redundant rendering, such as attachments on guns (which is why they're not as much work, though attachments are a pain if they change animations, like a vertical foregrip or grenade launcher) or different clothing (which is why visible armor and equipment is a fair amount of work, but not as much as it may seem). Admittedly, it's hard to say how far this is worth going through with; it's a lot of work, and if JA3D comes out (and sucks, which it will, but is moddable and therefore fixable, which we all hope for), then we might as well jump 1.13 to that and deal with graphics that are not stuck in the last century. But if lisac has the tools and people who know them (I know models and texturing, but I don't know sprites, Lightwave, etc), then at least some amount of this is worth doing. JA2's graphics were pretty damn awful in 1999, after all.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #179261] Thu, 27 March 2008 22:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser

 
Messages:769
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
guys, allthough i am nowhere involved in this or any form of JA2 dvelopement, i suggest, that you just let it be.

there really is no point in improving such an old engine this far, especially when it

☆★GL★☆
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179263] Thu, 27 March 2008 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tobias

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2006
Location: Munich, GERMANY
Hello,

if someone would ask me ... I would like to use Comandos 3 graphic engine + JA2 game engine (but latest software version) = all-new JA3 - JA-Galaxy-Edition 2008!

But unfortunately I have no clue about programming. I'm just happy with editing XML-files!
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179268] Thu, 27 March 2008 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3805
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
I'm with mauser on this one , who has time or money to spend on this when it doesn't really matter!
the guys who really are worth helping are scorpion , will and the polish guys and khor, new stories , characters and quests. All this blether about basically building a new game , when identical (ja3 / jazz ) games are on their way already , just seems a waste !(ok , ok , its not my time I'm wasting , but...) sorry guys , rant over :rant2:

[Updated on: Thu, 27 March 2008 23:55] by Moderator



Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179269] Fri, 28 March 2008 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dr-D

 
Messages:98
Registered:July 2005
Location: Portugal
Then why even make 1.13 if its based on a old and complicated code?

the anser: Becouse we love this game
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179272] Fri, 28 March 2008 02:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BirdFlu

 
Messages:441
Registered:September 2007
Location: Lampukistan
OK, now that i have a little bit more time, i can contribute something to this
discussion too.

First, i don't think that a switch to a 3D-Engine is going to work (very fast), because you
basically don't have any 3D-content. And the newer games don't look great because of a
special engine, they look great because of high-resolution 3D-models and textures. I mean
it is just an engine, not a wonder machine. No high-res content -> no good looks.

But high-res data is one thing, the other thing is the required 'horsepower'. What
would be the target group of such a project, only those people with uber-computers?
What about those who have smaller pcs or even laptops with very little 3D-rendering power?

Then there is the Direct3D issue. You would again have a hard time to port it linux or
MacOS systems (or you just wouldn't do it).

That was the bad part, now the good part.

I was working on an OpenGL 'engine' and already have a very basic prototype.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3139/ja2ma0.th.png
Right now it is just a small part of the laptop. The strategic view would be basically
the same. But the hard part is the tactical view. I haven't look too close on the
world rendering, so i don't know yet how to structure my engine, because as it is now
it would probably be too inefficient for rendering maps with a lot more content.

So, if those, who know, could point me in the right direction, it could speed-up development
a lot. The 'right direction' would be the important data structures, how maps are stored, loaded,
rendered (a basic outline of the algorithms would be very helpful), or just anything else of
importance.


BTW, is there anyone else who hates to scroll through files with 5 or more thousand
lines of code, or is it just me?

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179273] Fri, 28 March 2008 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Its exactly the reason people are still modding really old games like Fallout 2, and JA2. We like the game, the atmosphere and there are just a few niggling problems that need fixing. Personally I think it would be better to just try to work on a 3D version, but the problems with that are finding a good engine that we can modify without the hassle of legal crap and also having an engine that can perform to the expectations of the people who will play it. Not an easy scenario. We do have people who can modify and remake the sprites for the current engine now (well when Lisac gets some spare time to get started Wink ) and for a stop gap I for one would appreciate a few redone and upgraded animations. Its a lot of work, but then why on earth have we been making 1.13 for the last 2-3 years?


Sorry Birdflu didn't see your post. I wish I could help with the data structures, but all I can offer at the moment is damn that looks good for something you have just been playing around with. As its an interface you could probably port it over to another engine if we actually get a group together to work with a 3D engine. Would speed up the dev a lot.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179280] Fri, 28 March 2008 08:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Berserk00644

 
Messages:8
Registered:March 2008
i gotta agree.

whats the deal with ALFA:Antiterror? is it dead? work in progress? even worth looking at?
it seems to be pretty close to JA2 but with better graphics. moddable? game engine worth looking into?


but then, i really know nothing about it. just what i read, which was not much, nothing really... at all... Sad(
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179288] Fri, 28 March 2008 10:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3805
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
In response to:  
Poster: Dr-D
Subject: Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics 


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179295] Fri, 28 March 2008 11:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar

 
Messages:2041
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Well its not that pointless. If it works well it may take off like other mods. Its all to do with what is feasible at the time and who is prepared to work on it.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179303] Fri, 28 March 2008 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3805
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Poster: Kaerar
Subject: Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179309] Fri, 28 March 2008 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1199
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
This topic is not about creating a new 3D world. It's about revamping and improving the sprites we have now in the 2D, 3 quarter overhead world. Lisac's idea's are really good and do-able. We just need people focusing on that aspect, not the 3D aspect. Which BTW is ok for something other than 1.13.

Create a new topic somewhere else if you want to discuss 3D graphics.


Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179319] Fri, 28 March 2008 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1821
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
@ Mauser

Nothing to bash about what you said really but I think you may be missing the original point. Lisac is talking about adding layers to the existing sprites to illustrate armour and weapons being used. I think this is a good idea because it improves - in my opinion - gameplay immersion.

The only possible issues I have with it are:

Will it create new bugs?

The player will get some tactical advantage by knowing at a glance what the enemy has while the ai could hardly take advantage of this. I would really like to see some offset to the advantage the player would get from these illustrations but have not come up with even a theoretical bonus we could provide the ai with in this aspect.
That doesn't break the idea in my opinion. But it is something worth looking at.
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprite[message #179323] Fri, 28 March 2008 18:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser

 
Messages:769
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
Khor1255
@ Mauser

Nothing to bash about what you said really but I think you may be missing the original point. Lisac is talking about adding layers to the existing sprites to illustrate armour and weapons being used. I think this is a good idea because it improves - in my opinion - gameplay immersion.


granted, under this perspective, it may be a good thing to do. as long as it doesn

☆★GL★☆
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #179331] Fri, 28 March 2008 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1836
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
i can only speak for the medieval approach ;-D


i think the main problem is how detailed ja2's sprites are not in terms of resolution or colors, but in the number of frames and sophistication of the portrayed movements.


even with a semi-automated process and a highly motivated and skilled guy, it's still a HUGE thing, especially if the idea was to multi-layer every animation!

this would become necessary if things like armour/ clothing should be portrayed too. Weapons is one thing becasue they aren't used for the most difficult animations (e.g. falling from the roof, climbing a roof, jumping over fences etc)

there are many of even today's 3d games that don't even have things like that, jumping fences or climbing onto things (without the use of ladders... step-by-step)

so i'd say even if armour, clothing and such stuff is left away, the workload will still be quite high, even in spite of the semi automated process. i mean every desired item will have to be modeled for each of the moves for which it is used. For a normal number of guns, this is thinkable IMHO but for all equipment and armour i doubt it is doable.

i think the guy(s) who'd made the anims for ja2 was doing this as a full time job over a longer period of time. So i think lisac should get some help there.



i received some custom animations lately (yes, there are people working on that... the medieval way) and personally i wouldn't mind if more actions/ movement would be added rather than items/ layers. i'd say it might add more to the gameplay but then that's probabl a matter of taste.
Next Topic: Creating custom IMPs - A Tutorial
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat May 15 11:19:44 EEST 2021

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02850 seconds