Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 Weapon & Item Refinement » ARS - Advanced repair system
ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291484]
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Tue, 04 October 2011 12:44
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Hombre87 |
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Messages:15
Registered:April 2009 |
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This idea came to me while playing AIMNAS.
The current situation:
we got tons of guns, but they are judged by 3-4 factors. accuracy, damage, amunition and attachments. But somehow this dosen't feel right. There is no difference between an old m16 and a new hk g36 or xm8 or Scar-L. all do nearly the same damage, have the same range and accept the same attachments. but why is the m16 coolness level 5 and the scar-l level 8? And what about those LMGs? why carry a 16kg LMG, if a m16 with beta-c mag loads 100 rounds, weights half as much and eaven takes the bigger scopes? I admit, this is a little overdramatized, but thats where my idea comes:
The Advanced repair system:
Why is the mp5 the worlds most successful mp? because it's damn reliable! And so, those newer, "cooler" guns are more reliable than those crappy old m16. JA2 already checks the terrain for camouflage reasons, why shouldn't this apply to the wear and tear of weapons?
This brings me to another point: overheating. Newer weapons tend to overheat slower. therefor ja2 needs a system for the heatdevelopment of guns. Here comes the big advantage of LMGs. While an old m16 could be severly damaged by firing 100 bullets, taken into account that the gun is in the field for quite some time with no proper maintenance, those LMGs are designed to fire a few thousand shots.
Enter the replacable barrel:
After firing 100-200 rounds, use 60AP (or as much that no shooting in that round would be possible) and switch the barrel with a new one.
e.g.
Note: the barrel extender is used as a mockup dummy for the barrel.
Additionally there should be a second "page" to the NAS screen, showing the internal components of any gun:
From left to right: barrel, munition feed, trigger/triggergroup. i only use the icons as placeholders, they have nothing to do with the current triggergroups/mag adapters.
Those items should not be repairable with the old "repair" duty/skill. instead they can be repaired with special "weapon maintenece kits". this would work like using c20 to repair bodyarmor in aimnas (combining). if one component, e.g. the barrel should get destroyed, it can't be replaced, therefor the gun is broken and unusable (only lmgs got replacable barrels, but if you destroy their triggergroups due to bad maintenence, they get worthless, too).
The wear and tear of the guns/gun parts should be calculated according to:
the terrain - every gun gets a modificator for desert, wood and jungle(urban modificator being 1 or default).
The Ammo - overpreassure/match ammo heats the gun up faster, cold ammo slower.
the fire mode - this needs to be belanced by testing, but as a simple example - 6 single shots give 6 "heat points", 2 3-round burtst give 12 "heat points", 6 shots in full auto give 6x3= 18 "heat points". Again, every weapon can have its own multiplier, adding to the unique "feel" of every gun.
Things i need:
I've got my Ba.Sc. degree in computer science so i know how to code most of this. but i would need another coder who is experienced in ja2 modding and who can show me how and where to start.
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Private
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291496]
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Tue, 04 October 2011 16:52
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KEN C |
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Messages:244
Registered:May 2007 Location: Aberdeen Washington USA |
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I believe this can be a much needed improvement to the present gun system.
I encourage you to proceed as far as you can. Full time help is very hard to get here but people are willing to help when you get stuck on specific points.
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291505]
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Tue, 04 October 2011 17:33
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Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004 Location: Canada |
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Just to clarify, you want to link the general ability to fire on the state/existence of an attachment or two?
ie. no barrel = no shooting, no trigger group = no shooting
If so, great, I fully support this idea. However, would you consider making attachments governing fire mode a more general purpose capability? (see this old post: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290546#Post290546) Admitedly my suggestion is the reverse of how I'm reading your idea - attachments overriding fire modes, instead of blocking fire modes.
Otherwise I can answer some questions on the modding (data entry monkey work) side of things.
EDIT: I can also offer advice on past attempts to implement changable LMG barrels.
- current implementation in my three mods is a simple partial restoration of status
- past attempts included using the extended barrel infrastructrue, but I could never get them to last longer than 60 shots, or become totally indestructable. Also the barrel-less LMG could still fire (0 range is still range in-game).
[Updated on: Tue, 04 October 2011 18:35] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291556]
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Wed, 05 October 2011 11:12
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Hombre87 |
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Messages:15
Registered:April 2009 |
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@wil473: this is exacly what i am proposing. no barrel = no shooting etc.
I just came up with an idea for wear on the ammo reviecer. the wear should be increase if a mag-adapter is used. this would go well with the situation irl:
"A test in 2003 by US Army soldiers in Afghanistan found the C-Mag unreliable in simulated combat conditions, with frequent failures to feed among the issues.[4] Problems are exacerbated in dusty and sandy environments.[citation needed] The C-Mag also stresses the magazine release,[citation needed] since a fully loaded C-Mag weighs more than three fully loaded 30 round magazines."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_C-Mag
i will look into your idea for attachments, but i would see more purpose in it for throwing out those mag adapters and make the mags more realistic. e.g. an m16 would take those 10 shot clips, 30 shot stanag and 100 shot c-mags, but adding 10 10-shot clips would never generate a 100 c-mag. therefor we would need donkeys (like in aimnas) but instead of creating boxes, they are used to "fill up" those empty c-mags that are lying around in all of arulco
@Depressives Brot: 1. the basic steps like setting up the right IDE (don't know whats the most common here?), getting the source or a up to date prebuild, and maybe where to find the NAS-system, this advanced description thingy and the system for stamina ingame (wich i would like to copy for the heat management of guns).
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291664]
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Fri, 07 October 2011 18:16
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Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008 Location: Mars |
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There is no way you could copy the energy system to guns, as it is rooted in various places in the code. You could go for checking the way item status is handled though, and use similar way. Energy (stamina/breath) is a complicated thing which wouldn't help you any for this feature.
TBH I am a bit sceptical looking at the concept. For some reasons:
1) If you'd need to repair the parts to keep the gun functional, what about the overal gun status? What exactly it would represent then? Would it go down by using the gun or not? Isn't it kinda colliding?
2) If you introduce "weapon maintenance kits" to repair those parts, the regular repair system suffers. Repairing weapons is the most important part of the repair system in game. I wouldn't prefer to make it invaluable, but rather the contrary.
3) I can't see the benefits for the gameplay. If the player just has to use a kit from time to time, so his gun won't fall apart, it doesn't seem to expand players possibilites and choices much exciting way. More likely it could turn to a bothersome routine.
4) What difference does it have from just knowing which part of gun is damaged? If we let's say.. add a "schematic" view of guns, which shows damaged parts in red.. we may reach the same result. It does not matter which part of the gun is damaged - we still need to use the same kit anyway (which is the same as just repair it by regular repair assignment in the end).
Dunno, maybe it's just me. I hate to criticize, but I still had to say.
I believe there are better solutions.
Btw. there was a talk about similar things - about adding (semi-)permanent damages to weapons and another level of weapon status, which would go down much faster but could be "repaired" during mission by maintenance kits (dirt in barrel and magazine etc.. you just need to clean your weapon up). The lower this faster-degrading weapon status is while you still use the weapon, the more real damage is done to the gun and more chance to gun jamming. Etc. etc.
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291679]
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Sat, 08 October 2011 01:46
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Hombre87 |
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Messages:15
Registered:April 2009 |
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Sandro
1) If you'd need to repair the parts to keep the gun functional, what about the overal gun status? What exactly it would represent then? Would it go down by using the gun or not? Isn't it kinda colliding?
2) If you introduce "weapon maintenance kits" to repair those parts, the regular repair system suffers. Repairing weapons is the most important part of the repair system in game. I wouldn't prefer to make it invaluable, but rather the contrary.
3) I can't see the benefits for the gameplay. If the player just has to use a kit from time to time, so his gun won't fall apart, it doesn't seem to expand players possibilites and choices much exciting way. More likely it could turn to a bothersome routine.
4) What difference does it have from just knowing which part of gun is damaged? If we let's say.. add a "schematic" view of guns, which shows damaged parts in red.. we may reach the same result. It does not matter which part of the gun is damaged - we still need to use the same kit anyway (which is the same as just repair it by regular repair assignment in the end).
1) frankly, i don't give a damn about that. just because there is this "overall gun status" thing wouldn't keep me from messing with the system and creating something new. thats just like saying "ja2 has a cth-system, why make ncth?"
But on the other hand, thank you for this post, because now i know where to put the heat-indicator. that could replace the overall weapon status!
2)this thing is called "advanced repais system" so i basically throw out the old system, so again, i don't give a damn about the old system. and ARS wouldn'T make it more invaluable, it would make it MORE valuable - thats the whole idea behind it. the current system is.. not that good.
3) Ad a certain point, everything turn to routine in ja2, so i don't see the point in that. every time i train milita for 2-3 days, i let the other 4 mercs repair all my stuff. THATS BORING. The new system would add rapidly degrading weapons. currently you could clean out a whole town in one day/night without repairing any of your gear. maybe evan 2-3 towns. ARS would force you to maintain your gun in the field, or at least to take the heat development into consideration.
4) It's not about knowing wich part gets damaged, it's about how every gun wears off differently. and for every component there would be a special cleaning kit. and those kits deplete fast, like if the barrel has 1000HP max and currently 100, 1 kit would be... mec skill times 10. so we are talking about KITS not a single kit. if you think you must fire 100 rounds of match ammo in full auto from a 30yo m16, than you must face the chance of destroying the gun in the middle of a firefight.
i don't know how the current system calculates the damage an item takes over time, but after 4 playthrougs i couldn't really notive if there's a diffrence between shooting 100 round in semi or full auto mode. and i NEVER broke a gun or even had it jammed.
the old repair duty can still be used for repairing the other gear. the gain has to be rebalanced, but thats ONE LINE in the ini.
Just check out Aimnas, where the c18/20 armors can only be repaired by using cans of c18 and not with normal repair duty. if you don't like it, don't install ars ^^
Sam_HotteAnd if we want to make weapons more distinguishable from each other by means of reliability, well, we already have reliability and repair ease to deal with it, IMHO.
Again, this system does not care for HOW you use the gun. you can't turn an AR into a MG just by using a beta c-mag. and the current system doesn't takes this into account. the system was good enough for vanilla, with 4 gun addons and 3 types of ammo. but now every weapon has got burst/full auto triggers, is capable of holding 50-100 rounds and so on and on. therefor we need a new system that takes all this new possibilities into account.
[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2011 01:57] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291682]
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Sat, 08 October 2011 02:05
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KEN C |
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Messages:244
Registered:May 2007 Location: Aberdeen Washington USA |
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@ hombre, Don't let these guys get under your skin. new guys always get the short end around here. just produce some working code and you will get some fans. Quite a few good coders have quit offering improvements over the years because of people like these guys who are all talk and no production.
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291685]
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Sat, 08 October 2011 03:23
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Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008 Location: Mars |
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OLDNOOOB:
Oh.. uh...
Hombre87:
I wouldn't post my opinion if I wouldn't want to hear your arguments. They are welcomed. And despite OLDNOOOB seems to believe I criticize your project just because you are new (well, I am new too anyway), I can assure you it's not the case. I just study your concept.
It's still obscure to me, how exactly would your project work ingame. I mean, how exactly it will be "felt" by the player, and how exactly he'll enjoy its presence.
Maybe my translation of it is inaccurate, but it doesn't seem intuitive enough to me, expecially the thing with special kits. Having 3 types then.. and as you say, they deplete fast.. does it force my squads to carry a large quantity of kits to keep my guns operational?
I would be happy to have some large weapon-toolbox different from the standard toolkit, for some special treatment for my guns, but being "forced" to carry a number of types of boxes is different.
One thing, that I agree, is about the LMGs being overshadowed by ARs with C-mags. I am trying to work a solution to give LMGs their place too, by different means, but distinguish them more would always help.
The different tab with weapon parts might also be interesting, we could introduce the "weapon-craft" - being able to manipulate the parts, we could replace some of them to make different guns or just tweaking them (SCAR,...). (Of course only according to reality, I don't mean any magic-weapon-craft.)
But with the amount of guns, it would be a real pain to code such a thing... Nah, it may be just impossible.
It's ok that everything turns to routine.. if it's a routine we like.
About the 1) - the overall weapon status, I asked because you didn't mention what will become of it. If you replace it with overheating and pass its functionality to the parts, then it's ok. (Even that overheating as a big issue is not very realistic in the modern arms.)
Well..
Apologize for saying my opinion, but I get it when you showed us the project you wanted the opinion. (On the other hand I see how eager you are to create something and that shouldn't be wasted.)
And, uh... sorry for long post.
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291704]
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Sat, 08 October 2011 18:30
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Sam Hotte |
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Messages:1966
Registered:March 2009 Location: Middle of Germany |
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Hombre87Sam_HotteAnd if we want to make weapons more distinguishable from each other by means of reliability, well, we already have reliability and repair ease to deal with it, IMHO.
Again, this system does not care for HOW you use the gun. you can't turn an AR into a MG just by using a beta c-mag. and the current system doesn't takes this into account.
My experience is different: Whenever i shot burst/auto fire with an AR it deteriorates faster than if i just take single shots. So my perception is that the system does take it into account how i use the gun.
Have you taken a look at one of Wil473's mods (AFS, DL, UC)? IIRC He did increase differentiation in reliabilty and introduced some sort of maintance-kit. Unfortunately i do not know, whether his user's feedback was quite in favour of this or not.
Quote:the system was good enough for vanilla, with 4 gun addons and 3 types of ammo. but now every weapon has got burst/full auto triggers, is capable of holding 50-100 rounds and so on and on. therefor we need a new system that takes all this new posssibilities into account.
I agree with you that there might be an benefit gameplay wise if the drawbacks of those things would be more emphasized (like: c-mag adaptor decreases gun's reliability by lets say 2 or more, certain types of ammunition add to even faster deterioration and so on). On the other hand dedicated LMGs could start with higher reliability and/or repair ease because of better barrels than the AR they were derived from.
JFTR: I am not bashing your ideas nor efforts nor attacking you in a personal way. I am just sharing my thoughts on the idea/topic as i guessed you wanted to get feedback.
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Sergeant Major
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Re: ARS - Advanced repair system[message #291723]
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Sat, 08 October 2011 23:47
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Hombre87 |
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Messages:15
Registered:April 2009 |
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Sam_Hotte
My experience is different: Whenever i shot burst/auto fire with an AR it deteriorates faster than if i just take single shots. So my perception is that the system does take it into account how i use the gun.
Have you taken a look at one of Wil473's mods (AFS, DL, UC)? IIRC He did increase differentiation in reliabilty and introduced some sort of maintance-kit. Unfortunately i do not know, whether his user's feedback was quite in favour of this or not.
I agree with you that there might be an benefit gameplay wise if the drawbacks of those things would be more emphasized (like: c-mag adaptor decreases gun's reliability by lets say 2 or more, certain types of ammunition add to even faster deterioration and so on). On the other hand dedicated LMGs could start with higher reliability and/or repair ease because of better barrels than the AR they were derived from.
1) I just tested it, 100 shots match from a g36k fired in single shots made the gun go from 98% to 94%. in 3rnd burst from 98 to 93% and in full auto 96%! so this is random and dosn't take into account what ammo is used or the way the weapon is used. and a loss of 4% after firing 100 rounds is way to slow for this game.according to this you could fire 1000 shots in burst mode, before the overall status decreases to 50%...
If you want lmgs to be more reliable, than go on and edit the xml to your likings, but that has nothing to do with this mode. NO ONE is forced to install this mod and it's not my intention to get this idea/concept of mine into 1.13 or smp or whatsoever. it'S just for those guys out there who think it'S a good idea and would be willing to play this. and heck, even if no one else wants to play this mod, i would be happy as hell if there are enough kind people here to help me build this mod just for MY PERSONAL ENTERTAINMEND. And if other people want it to, i'ld be more than happy to share my code with them!
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