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Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293355] Sun, 13 November 2011 03:46 Go to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Yeah so, if I do ever end up attempting this, it has to be discussed first. It'll be important to find out what modders are expecting from this feature, what can be done, and of course what shouldn't be done.

Concept

If you haven't read about the concept of Self-Transforming Items (STIs... which means this project needs a better name ASAP), the idea is to be able to change an item's properties spontaneously.

The situation now is that the majority of items are "rigid", meaning that the item will retain all of its original stats for the duration of its existence. For example, a gun will always have the same range regardless of what you do with it. Attachments can change the final values, but these have limited practicality. Alternately, we have merges - turning an item into another item by using a third item on it. This is good for some things (like combining items to form the X-ray detector) but not practical for others. Sometimes we just need an item that can transform completely on its own - no merges or attachments involved.

The obvious solution would be to create Self-Transforming Items. The idea is that some items will feature transformation buttons, which allow the player to instantly turn an item into a different version of itself.

Transformation Mechanism

The idea I've always had is that, to transform an item all on its own, all we really need are buttons. In other words, the player gets one (or more) new buttons which, when pressed, instantly transform the item into another one. These would be called "transformators", "mode switches" or whatever other snazzy name we choose.

On the modding-side of the mechanism, modders create two (or more) versions of the item, and using an XML they "link" from one version to the next, basically defining parameters for the transformators (what a shitty name).

When the button is clicked, the game checks the transformation tables as read from the XML, determines which item our target is supposed to turn into, and then simply switches the existing item with a new one.

From the player's perspective, it would seem as though the item changed. In essence, we just switched it with a new item, but the result would be identical - especially if we take care to copy the relevant sub-properties of the "old" item to the "new" one, such as its condition, ammo left in a gun, etcetera.

Basic XML Definitions

The XML for this system should be very simple, but of course will get larger as modders have more transformations to handle. It should probably be as big than the merges XML, or at least of that general scale.

Each entry in this XML contains the parameters regarding a single item. The data is structured as follows:


   
      ###
      ###
      ###
   



This is the simplest form (more complex forms explained below).

In this XML, the following values are used:
  • usIndex: The index# of the original item, from Items.XML
  • usTargetIndex: The index# of the desired new item, from Items.XML
  • ubAPCost:The AP cost for this action, if attempting during battle.

This defines a single transformation. When the transformator is clicked, the game finds the entry related to the existing item, checks whether to charge an AP cost (or fail due to insufficient APs), and then deletes the existing item and creates an item with the new Index# in its place.

Examples

There are two items which currently are the primary targets for this system: the Folding Stock, and the Variable Scope. These are essentially the items that require the most immediate implementation - though there are many other possible applications for this system that won't be discussed right now.

These are also good examples for how the system works, because they're simple. We'll start with the Folding Stock here, because it's by far the simplest (I'll explain Variable Scopes later on).

At the moment, we have a single Folding Stock item (possibly several, but they fit on different guns or have different stats to begin with). Due to the lack of a proper way to extend or collapse the stock, a Folding Stock exists simultaneously in both a folded and non-folded state. In other words, the game assumes that the stock is folded or unfolded based on the situation, giving the shooter an "average" bonus that covers both of these states. Long story short, the modifiers we give to a Folding Stock are halfway between those of a solid stock and no stock at all.

With the transformation system, a folding stock would have a button which, when clicked, changes the item from "Folded" to "Unfolded" and vice-versa, altering the modifiers to the gun by changing the stock itself, rather than attaching anything to it to make it give different modifiers.

This is accomplished by creating two versions of the same Folding Stock defined in Items.XML. First is the unfolded version, giving bonuses similar to those of a solid stock but also an "AP to Ready" penalty. The second version, the folded stock, gives no bonuses at all, but also does not give the AP to Ready penalty. Both items share almost all other properties (such as weight etc).

The XML would look like this:

   
      Index # of Folded Stock item
      Index # of Unfolded Stock item
      AP cost to unfold the stock, say 15 AP
   
   
      Index # of Unfolded Stock item
      Index # of Folded Stock item
      AP cost to fold the stock, say 35 AP
   



With this setup, the stock can be folded and unfolded at will, repeatedly, assuming sufficient APs available or not in turn-based mode. So, during close combat, the player can fold the stock to reduce draw costs, while long-range combat or autofire would work better while the stock is unfolded.

After either transformation, the new item will retain only the variable properties of the original - which would probably only be its condition in this case - while all the other properties are altered as per the differences in the Items.XML definitions of the two versions of this stock. Visually, it would seem to the player as though the item hasn't changed - only the bonuses and penalties it bestows have changed. Like fairy magic!

Complex Example

As promised, let's talk about Variable Scopes.

We can use the same format we used above, where the scope has two states: for instance a scope that transforms from 2x to 4x and backwards. This is a fairly simple action. We could assign a 10 AP cost in both directions. This offers our mercs a more flexible combat range with only a single weapon and scope - no additional items required.

But why settle for two modes when we could have three? A scope could theoretically transform from 2x to 4x, then from 4x to 6x, then from 6x back to 2x!

To do this, the modder creates three versions of the same scope, changing only the appropriate optical modifiers (sight range, aimbonus, Scope Magnification in NCTH, etcetera) in each version to reflect the different scope power settings.

The transformations XML would then be as follows:

   
      Index # of 2x version
      Index # of 4x version
      10
   
   
      Index # of 4x version
      Index # of 6x version
      10
   
   
      Index # of 6x
      Index # of 2x version
      10
   



Voila, a chain of transformations which allows us to iterate through the steps.

In real-time mode, this simply allows us to set the scope to whatever magnification we think we'll need. In turn-based, of course, getting from 4x to 2x means having to spend an extra 10APs (and a needless extra click) going through 6x mode first, which may be annoying.

Reverse Transformation

The solution to the above turn-based issue is to have transformations work in two directions when required. In other words, each item can have up to two transformations defined - going in either direction.

Consider this XML:

   
      Index# of 2x
      
         Index# of 4x
         10
      
      
         index# of 6x
         10
               
   
   
      Index# of 4x
      
         Index# of 6x
         10
      
      
         index# of 2x
         10
               
   
   
      Index# of 6x
      
         Index# of 2x
         10
      
      
         index# of 4x
         10
               
   



With this we've created a loop which can be traversed in both directions as required, not requiring us to waste any steps. This is facilitated by having two buttons - one transforming "forwards", the other "backwards", and the player can decide which way he wants to go with each transformation. Tooltips over these buttons will show the name of the target item that will result when this button is clicked, resolving possible confusion.

The second ("BACKWARDS") definition is not mandatory. That way so that you can define only a forward direction if you want - thus removing redundant buttons for items that only require two states (i.e. you only get one button in such case, going forward, instead of two).

Further Possibilities

There are probably many possible applications I haven't even begun to consider yet - though this will be more up to the modders themselves to come up with. Note that naturally, items can transform into anything with this system, you're not limited to giving out slightly-different versions of the same thing. For example, you can turn an inert item into a useful one or vice verse if necessary. Think of it as sort of a "merge", but without requiring a second item to catalyze the transformation.

It's possible that this system could even replace several existing systems, all becoming unified into the use of these buttons to interact with the item. Again, this would require imaginative thinking.

Questions to be answered

1. Better names. "STI" is already taken (duh), and the buttons themselves may need good names so that this system could be easily explained to newcomers.

2. XML format. Is it any good? Is there something missing?

3. Further options. Are there any transformation options I have not considered above, that might require the system to work a little differently?

4. Flaws. What are the caveats with this system, and/or how they should be solved.

5. Interface. Suggestions about where to put these buttons (they'll probably be very small, no need to waste space) and what they should look like (suggested icons). What about hotkeys?

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293365] Sun, 13 November 2011 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Let me be the first to comment on this long overdue Smile project then:

1) How about Single Item Merges (SIM)? Nicely falls in line with regular merges and attachment merges already present.

3) Possibility to get up to 2 resulting items in a single action, I'm thinking about tearing a shirt to rags or splitting a chunk of C4 in two, do you need a knife for this? (AIMNAS uses the latter and requires a piece of wire to do so) The second result would then be created dangling at the cursor.

5) Why use buttons at all? Why not something like the_bobs Attachment PopUp? Basically, right and left clicking the item pic when the description box is open are redundant actions right now, both closing the box. Why not have right click bring up a popup that lists all possible transformations? No need to have forward/backward defined either, for a 2-10x in 2x 'mode', you can just choose from the full range of 'modes', i.e. 4x, 6x, 10x.

2) It looks familiar enough.

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Captain

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293378] Sun, 13 November 2011 13:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
1) How about Single Item Merges (SIM)? Nicely falls in line with regular merges and attachment merges already present.


Hmmm to be honest I don't like it for several reasons, though the primary one is that personally I'm not keen on having yet another acronym - we've got too many of those already.

Will keep that in mind, but need more suggestions.

Quote:

3) Possibility to get up to 2 resulting items in a single action, I'm thinking about tearing a shirt to rags or splitting a chunk of C4 in two, do you need a knife for this? (AIMNAS uses the latter and requires a piece of wire to do so) The second result would then be created dangling at the cursor.


Oh shit, I completely forgot about that! Which is funny because that's the original problem that started the discussion on self-transformation years ago - how to split merged items back into their components. Hmmm well it's quite possible too of course, though a little trickier to XMLize because in theory you should be able to turn one item into several, not just two. It is possible though.

Quote:
5) Why use buttons at all? Why not something like the_bobs Attachment PopUp? [...]


Huh. Yeah you said something about that, but this is the first time I'm actually seeing it.

In theory, each entry could theoretically include a user-entered title, for example:

   [Folded Stock]
   [Unfolded Stock]
   10
   Unfold



Here, "Unfold" would be the title of the menu option that, when clicked, unfolds the stock. The main drawback to this of course would be the need for different language XMLs.

There are also several drawbacks to using a pop-up menu - mostly because I think it's overkill when buttons would be less confusing. Of course this does limit each item to have only up to three options (forward transform, backwards transform, and unmerge).

Also if left-click on an attachment brings up that widget thing, then left-click should also be used for item transformations to avoid confusing the buttons constantly. Maybe the best solution would be to have a button - just one button - that when clicked opens that menu. The button can be tiny, located either somewhere in the NAS area or right inside the item image (bottom-right corner seems free ATM).

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293380] Sun, 13 November 2011 13:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne is currently offline Gorro der Grüne

 
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I don't like the "selftransforming" it sounds like the gun decides to become a flail and starts transforming

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293381] Sun, 13 November 2011 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tais

 
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1) Optimus?

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First Sergeant

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293382] Sun, 13 November 2011 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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Quote:
How about Single Item Merges (SIM)?

This. Smile

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293386] Sun, 13 November 2011 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1965
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1) Changeable items
- Adjustable items
- Variable items

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293389] Sun, 13 November 2011 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cdudau
Quote:
Hmmm to be honest I don't like it for several reasons, though the primary one is that personally I'm not keen on having yet another acronym - we've got too many of those already.

Will keep that in mind, but need more suggestions.


That was my initial reaction as well.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293418] Sun, 13 November 2011 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Quote:
Variable items


This was actually the original name I gave to this feature, but I didn't like it very much.

Quote:
Adjustable items


I like this. Plus it's short and doesn't make a good acronym, so win-win!

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293421] Sun, 13 November 2011 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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Just to complete the list: 'convertible items' came to my mind as well. Smile

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293464] Mon, 14 November 2011 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Quote:
Integral attachments (scopes, shoulder stocks, reflex sights) arent default attachments to set integral attachments you have to add several parameters on your own but than you will run into problem. Maybe there is a smoother way to do that? Many weapons have integral folding stocks. The system should know if the weapon uses an integral stock or not! Surely both version integral/mounted stock will get an option to un-/fold same for other integral/mounted examples. Integral stocks could get certain parameter based on the mounted variants.


Erm... I don't know what problems you run into while creating integral attachments - I've never dealt with that stuff before to be honest. If that system doesn't work, perhaps there's a way to repair it though.

Quote:
For quite some time: Attchment Icons.


I'm not sure how this ties into what I'm talking about here.

P.S. I put in asterisks into my Big Inventory design to show attachments (sorry, I have no link, it was like 5 years ago), but that of course never happened in reality. These things are useless now though, with NAS you would have a dozen icons. Easier to just look at the damn item description box.

Quote:
For the "button-thing" if pushing the button you switch to the gerneral weapon page where can choose several action like un-/folded stock which magnification factor ectera all are listed under the primary stats of the weapon. Fe. next to the scope icon i would suggest to add two buttons (very small ones), "+" and "-" higher/lower the magnification in high of 0.5%.


Sorry, but I think you misunderstood how this system is supposed to work. We're not adjusting individual statistics at all here - the idea is to change an item into another item, and that does not necessarily have anything to do with any of the stats appearing in the description box. You could change a t-shirt into a rag, neither of which has any stats AFAIK. The buttons need to go in a more universal location. I think possibly a good place would be in the DESC tab - which is currently spacious - though that would make it more difficult to compare how an adjustment affects stats...

Quote:
And one question i'm not an expert but as far as i know several scopes are static. Maybe an option to choose if the scope is fixed or not?!


Static/Fixed? I don't follow you...

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293465] Mon, 14 November 2011 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Quote:
Just to complete the list: 'convertible items' came to my mind as well.


I'll keep that in mind when it comes time to allow changing the Hummer into a Giant Robot. Very Happy

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293467] Mon, 14 November 2011 03:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Yes I understood that, but I said that the buttons should be in completely universal positions - not related to any stat, otherwise they'd be entirely confusing: we'd have to move the buttons from one place to another for different items, and what's more, Item Adjustments are not necessarily linked to any stats.

In other words, integral scopes will have to be done as inseparable attachments to be able to do this, and if that doesn't work, we'll want to make it work.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293470] Mon, 14 November 2011 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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Self Alienating Merges. SAM!
Hard to get, but come on, SAM! Very Happy

[Updated on: Mon, 14 November 2011 03:48] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293471] Mon, 14 November 2011 04:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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@ Monade:

I'm sorry, there's no better way of saying this, but I don't think you understand how the system is supposed to work. Also I think you don't understand how UDB works, since you're pointing to "empty space" that is actually used for several items...

Please let's just drop that idea, it's not workable at all.

I was thinking of putting the buttons on the "big item" picture, possibly in the bottom-right corner. Alternately, in the bottom right corner of the NAS attachments area. I'm not sure that area is empty all the time though - from what I understand there may be attachment slots there some of the time, right?

@ Slax:

I really hope you're not serious. Smile
(P.S. are you Slaxor from Youtube who is making the video tutorials?)

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293472] Mon, 14 November 2011 04:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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Yeah, that's me. Those videos were terrible though so now they're gone. Aiming for an eventual reboot.
Being significantly informative is apparently pretty dang difficult.

Not actually sure if I'm being serious. SAM just makes me smile. Razz
Oh, and welcome back! :ok:

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293493] Mon, 14 November 2011 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1965
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Headrock, despite the issue of where can/should/must the 'Adjustment Button' be located, what Monade is saying (if i got him right) is that it is at least desirable that there was some feedback to the player to which adjustment the attached adjustable item (scope, stock) is currently set.

The player currently gets some immediate information about if a clip is inserted to his weapon at all and at least a rough guess how many and what sort of bullets are in it.
And the player has feedback on the one single adjustable item that is already built in the game - the trigger.
I can always see if my trigger is set to single/burst/auto/GL.

So Monade wishes - and i 2nd this - that the player should be able to see if his adjustable scope is currently set to 2x, 4x or whatever and if the adjustable stock is retracted, unfolded or whatever right now. Preferably without the need to open the UDB or the attachment pop-up.
(But i do not have the slightest idea if/how this could be coded)

That's assumably why Monades is talking about presenting the current mode of adjustable attachments in the weapon's hand display of the carried gun.


Headrock
Quote:
Just to complete the list: 'convertible items' came to my mind as well.


I'll keep that in mind when it comes time to allow changing the Hummer into a Giant Robot.

Sorry, but in that particular case it definitely has to be named TRANSFORMER item ... Wink

Slax
Not actually sure if I'm being serious. SAM just makes me smile

I fear that 'Serious Sam' is already TMed by somebody else ... Razz Wink

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293495] Mon, 14 November 2011 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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slax
Yeah, that's me. Those videos were terrible though so now they're gone. Aiming for an eventual reboot.


The voiced ones were better than the textual ones, I commented on this on YouTube. I think you have a good grasp of how make these visually, sufficient video editing skills at the least. What's lacking is a SCRIPT, i.e. lots of forethought about what needs to be said, written down so you can read it aloud instead of try to think about what should happen next, with timing and all that shit. If it's done well enough, these things could become the OFFICIAL video tutorials on how to play JA2, perhaps even link them into the game somehow so that new players can watch them. They'd need to be of very high quality, but just think how much help it would be.

Sam_Hotte
Headrock, despite the issue of where can/should/must the 'Adjustment Button' be located, what Monade is saying (if i got him right) is that it is at least desirable that there was some feedback to the player to which adjustment the attached adjustable item (scope, stock) is currently set.


That part of what he was saying is valid to some degree - though it's completely out of the scope of this article to begin with (he even cited the link to the article where this other project is being discussed). Adjustable Items don't necessarily have anything to do with attachments at all, plus they're just a convenience for something you can currently do in a much more complicated and less efficient way (see wil473's comments here).

As to adding +/- buttons to UDB, or showing the state of a folding stock, I hope I don't need to explain why I said that's not a good idea...

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293498] Mon, 14 November 2011 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
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I should probably set up an information flow thread once I'm ready to go again. Have the Pit help out a bit. Not that I have much else going on but it's a matter of tedium. Was thinking I'd do a short playthrough from Omerta to Drassen and let the game set the pace. Combat, merc management, militia training and all that. Later filling in with a ini editing skit. Thing is, I want it to be fun and coherently speaking to a computer screen makes me crack up. Guess I need to buy a suit and go pro.

[/off_topic]

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Sergeant Major
Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293505] Mon, 14 November 2011 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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I think a playthrough should be _part_ of the tutorial, but not constitute the whole thing. It probably should be the last chapter(s) in the series.

But yeah this needs discussion on the forum in a more organized fashion.

Anyhow back to items that turn into giant robots.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293513] Mon, 14 November 2011 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cdudau
I will keep it short because I know that you want to get this back on topic.

The help screen can be utilized in a much better fashion. It lacks loads of information vital to the game.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293516] Mon, 14 November 2011 16:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
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Yo HR, I have read - uhm - some of your post, it is long, you know me, attention span not good.

Couple things I thought of. Most importantly items in JA are static, as you said, but they are also generic, meaning other than status and attachments every e.g. G3 in the game is identical. I feel all items should inherit from a template but be unique after their creation.

Guns are complex mechanical devices which will vary slightly in manufacturing quality. For example when you take a specific pistol e.g. Glock model 21 of a certain year, most of these will work identical, but you will get 1 in e.g. 1,000 that has a jamming problem or that is super accurate.

WHile I can't explain why this is useful in the game, I feel there is an underlying principle which is important.

The only manifestation I can think of in the game is that you may get a pretty sh*tty gun or an amazingly good one depending on luck. Many variables can be customized e.g. reliability, accuracy, and the plethora of NCTH stuff.


Another thing which comes to mind is that you may need more than one resource for "merging". Think of making a cartridge, you need primer, case, powder, and the bullet. However for pre 1900 you may need to make a paper cartridge, where you need paper, powder, wad, shot.

Also some "merges" may need nothing, which will be solved by the button e.g. you seperate something into parts e.g. pull the retaining pin will break up an AR into an upper and a lower receiver (and also may drop the bolt carrier group on the floor).

NAS has a weird thing I discovered, you can right click on an attachment slot and it will bring up a pop up menu. It looks like if you have one of the matching attachments in your inventory, you can select it from the pop up menu which will remove the attachment from your inventory and add it to the attachment slot.

While I never use this, I feel this principle can be useful for your idea. Some guns have a default group of 4 attachment slots. Maybe right clicking on one of them can bring up a menu where you can choose a self-transformation.


Another thing we discussed during the SMP, you were part of that session, was something I couldn't explain well, the inability of the XML to deal with property additions, how to resolve inheritance conflicts.

There is no notion of "strong" and "weak" XML tags, because this would require defining how a tag relates to other tags.

For example if I add a trigger group to a rifle to give it the ability to burst, I can either add XML tags/properties (pre NAS) but not delete existing ones unless I add a negative value, or I can add a positive or negative modifier (post NAS) which I then need to understand how any combination of attachments can affect the minimum or maximum achievable value.

For example I added a RAS bipod and a gripod and got a bipod bonus of 100% because the attachments were not mutually exclusive (oversight) and the bonuses (spell?) stacked.

A good item system needs to allow the definition of how adding (changing) an item will affect its other properties instead of transforming the item into another item ID or adding values to its properties.


Back then I used the example of a belt, a carbine hook, a water bottle, and a bottle stopper with a latch. Adding the carbine hook to the belt should *not* change the item ID of the belt, it should just be an attachment (not in the JA sense), which gives the belt new abilities. The same goes for the water bottle and the stopper with a latch, it is still the same water bottle, it handles exactly the same.

However now the bottle can be hung of the carbine on the belt, which in turn changes the belt a little. For one thing the bottle uses up some space e.g. there is a limit to how many bottles you can attach before you run out of room. For another the bottle may (or may not) render some locations of the belt unusable e.g. you could have used the spot to clip on a small flashlight with a belt clip instead, now there is no room for both because the carbine hook is in the way of the flashlight when the flashlight is clipped on the belt.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293518] Mon, 14 November 2011 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Dieter
Another thing which comes to mind is that you may need more than one resource for "merging". Think of making a cartridge, you need primer, case, powder, and the bullet. However for pre 1900 you may need to make a paper cartridge, where you need paper, powder, wad, shot.
That's what attachment combo merges are for (within limits). See gun barrel extender.
Dieter
Also some "merges" may need nothing, which will be solved by the button e.g. you seperate something into parts e.g. pull the retaining pin will break up an AR into an upper and a lower receiver (and also may drop the bolt carrier group on the floor).
That's the idea behind this system, as far as I can tell.
Dieter
NAS has a weird thing I discovered, you can right click on an attachment slot and it will bring up a pop up menu. It looks like if you have one of the matching attachments in your inventory, you can select it from the pop up menu which will remove the attachment from your inventory and add it to the attachment slot.
Actually, the_bob added that not long ago.

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Captain

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293523] Mon, 14 November 2011 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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Headrock

Sam_Hotte
Headrock, despite the issue of where can/should/must the 'Adjustment Button' be located, what Monade is saying (if i got him right) is that it is at least desirable that there was some feedback to the player to which adjustment the attached adjustable item (scope, stock) is currently set.


That part of what he was saying is valid to some degree - though it's completely out of the scope of this article to begin with (he even cited the link to the article where this other project is being discussed). Adjustable Items don't necessarily have anything to do with attachments at all, plus they're just a convenience for something you can currently do in a much more complicated and less efficient way (see wil473's comments here).

As to adding +/- buttons to UDB, or showing the state of a folding stock, I hope I don't need to explain why I said that's not a good idea...


Maybe your proposal needs some further explanation for those who are not to familiar with the XMLs and all that stuff (like me Sad ). I'll give it try so you (or somebody) might pls correct me where i got it wrong:

By clicking your intended "Transformation Button" the item instantly transforms into another item (that could have different name, different picture etc.) and the only mandatory link (visible to the player) between those 2 items is that they both have the mentioned button and transform into one another if this button is triggered (in case of a folding-stock like item; in case of the adjustable scope like items the transformation is not necessarily binary but could be a chain like A->B->C->A)

So for instance if we had a scope that could be set to either 2x or 4x magnification, it would e.g. have the picture derived from the current ACOG. This adjustable scope would consist of 2 different items:
The first item (A) would have the picture of an ACOG and written in red "2x" next to it and the "Change"-Button beneath it (or where ever it fits in) and it is named something like "adj. Scope on 2x". It has all the values close to the normal 2x scope.
On clicking the "Change"-Button it converts into item B, the "adj. Scope on 4x" with the picture of an ACOG and written in red "4x" next to it and the "Change"-Button beneath it (or where ever it fits in). It has all the values close to the normal 4x ACOG-scope.
Clicking its button, i again hold item A in my virtual hands.

If i attached the described adjustable scope to my gun and hover the mouse over my gun, the on-hover pop-up will show among the attachments a line "adj. Scope on 2x" ("... on 4x" respectively).

To cut it short, you proposed merges that work without a second item attached to the first one but merge on mouse click.

Did i get the idea?

TIA.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 November 2011 17:48] by Moderator

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293524] Mon, 14 November 2011 17:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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In general terms, yes.

Note: It would also be possible to have A transform to B1 and B2, the often cited shirt-to-rags merge. And with the interface Dieter and me advocate, you could replace the A->B->C->D->A chains with a menu selection for A->B or A->C or A->D.
Also, the distinction should probably be part of the graphic (see smeagols 2,3 and 4rd trigger groups) and/or the item name ( like '2-4x40 Scope, 2.5x', where 2.5x indicates the currently used 'mode').

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293525] Mon, 14 November 2011 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
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Transformation Control - I would suggest keeping it out of the NAS attachment slot area. Either of the currently discussed: corner of the BigItem graphic, or pop-up menu from a right-click on the Big Item graphic.

Perhaps some combination of both: double-click on the BigItem graphic triggers "forward" transform, right click on graphic triggers pop-up of menu with options for "forward" and "backward" transforms.

Reason's I don't particularly care for having a button in the NAS attachment slot area:

1) I've got more or less all parts of this area in use (I'm not using standard v1.13 NAS defines). The lower right corner for instance is where I keep the four "internal" slots for rod&springs, trigger groups, and storage of miscellaneous items. Upper Right corner, is used for ad-hoc display of instructions to players (using dummy attachments, and the slot's pop-up label feature).

2) If the "button" is simply a modified NAS slot, or otherwise shares elements with how NAS slots are displayed, I'm fearing that buttons would overlap. The NAS slots defined for an attachment, add to the slots of the weapon. This how the ACOG can add a slot specifically for a Reflex Sight.

My projects use this capability extensively (tons of attachments that add new NAS slots), and one of the debugging tasks I run into occasionally is slot "de-confliction." A handful of slots share the same coordinates, and were planned never to appear at the same time - mistakes, and inattention during planning has meant otherwise, leading to the debugging work. My fear is that even though the buttons are not NAS slots per sec, enough may be shared so that the button for a scope transform may overlap with that of the weapon's folding stock. Which lead to...

3) Knowing what you are transforming. Clicking, or a menu popping up from the BigImage gives a clear indication to the player as to what they are modifying.

EDIT:
DepressivesBrot
Also, the distinction should probably be part of the graphic (see smeagols 2,3 and 4rd trigger groups) and/or the item name ( like '2-4x40 Scope, 2.5x', where 2.5x indicates the currently used 'mode').

Yeah, my projects already have different graphics for most weapons with their stock folded/deployed, and the ARS Magnifier System (ie. "proof-of-concept" for the utility of variable power scopes under NCTH) have their magnification factor set illustrated in both Interface and BigItem graphics.

[Updated on: Mon, 14 November 2011 19:56] by Moderator

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293526] Mon, 14 November 2011 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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Thanks, Depri, for clarification.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293531] Mon, 14 November 2011 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Transformation Control - I would suggest keeping it out of the NAS attachment slot area. Either of the currently discussed: corner of the BigItem graphic, or pop-up menu from a right-click on the Big Item graphic.


Since right-click is primarily used for cancel actions, I'll stick with left-click on the big item picture (assuming a pop-out menu, otherwise buttons in the lower-right corner of the bigitempic).

Double-click is... too hard to implement AFAIK.

Quote:
3) Knowing what you are transforming. Clicking, or a menu popping up from the BigImage gives a clear indication to the player as to what they are modifying.


Well, tooltips will at the very least indicate the name of the "target" item. Or possibly an XML-defined text specific to that transformation is displayed.

If menu options are used, we can define in the XML both the title of the option and the tooltip you get when mousing over it.

Quote:
Yeah, my projects already have different graphics for most weapons with their stock folded/deployed, and the ARS Magnifier System (ie. "proof-of-concept" for the utility of variable power scopes under NCTH) have their magnification factor set in both Interface and BigItem graphics.


That's useful, though I'm not sure it would work for all items - so keep in mind that some indicative naming may be required to avoid confusion.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293533] Mon, 14 November 2011 20:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Headrock
so keep in mind that some indicative naming may be required to avoid confusion.
Already in place, I use the following indicators: (<) and (>) to indicate a stock state different from the "default." I started off using the name to set the two apart, but since I ended up using separate items for the alternate stock state, might as well add the graphics to make the Folding Stock System look nice. Copies of rifles used in the Rifle Launched Grenade feature are only differentiated by name.

Part shameless plug, and part passing on experience, some of the ideas for transforming items are implemented in my projects via rather ungainly merger and NAS slot order-of-operation exploitation (not a specific feature of NAS intended by WarmSteel or ChrisL, but they've been humouring my use of it). Alrulco Folding Stock is the easiest of the three projects to install as it is essentially all the advance item ideas dropped into the stock JA2 campaign. See: 20110912 Alrulco Folding Stock v3.40 (the Current Full Public Release)

AFS/UC-1.13/DL-1.13 features of note where transforming items would be useful:
- Folding Stock System (a big chunk of the merger definitions)
- Rifle Launched Grenades (right now there are a bunch of complicated mergers to 1)disable bullet firing/present grenade slot, 2)convert the weapon back to a bullet firing weapon afterwards, single item transformation should at least allow getting rid of the 2nd type of mergers in this mod feature)
- Advance Reflex Sight + Magnifiers - not something that would be specifically replaced by a variable power scope, but proves the utility of a variable power scope under NCTH

[Updated on: Mon, 14 November 2011 20:53] by Moderator

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293572] Tue, 15 November 2011 04:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
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DepressivesBrot
Also, the distinction should probably be part of the graphic (see smeagols 2,3 and 4rd trigger groups) and/or the item name ( like '2-4x40 Scope, 2.5x', where 2.5x indicates the currently used 'mode').


I think it will be perfectly acceptable to have a placeholder graphic, like a smoke cloud, for all incomplete merges, something to indicate you are still working on it, the text will tell the player at what stage the item merge currently is. I feel making detailed graphic for all temporary and at that stage unusable items is too much overkill and may slow down coding progress. However if the XML specifies a graphic, sure why not display it, but if there is no graphic specified, just display the placeholder.

Yo HR, not sure if you read through all my crap, there were some good ideas, some we talked about in SMP.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293581] Tue, 15 November 2011 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
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Quote:
Yo HR, not sure if you read through all my crap, there were some good ideas, some we talked about in SMP.


Well, you didn't read through all my crap... Smile

In any case I'll try to comment:

Quote:
Couple things I thought of. Most importantly items in JA are static[...]


There are also upsides to them being static. It would be ridiculously difficult to compare them if they were not static, not to mention keep the specific data about every item... this is not the purpose of the feature being discussed here anyway, and is probably best left for coders with significantly more experience than me.

From a design point-of-view though, I can tell you that such a thing would be a serious headache for both modders and players...

Quote:
Another thing which comes to mind is that you may need more than one resource for "merging". Think of making a cartridge, you need primer, case, powder, and the bullet. However for pre 1900 you may need to make a paper cartridge, where you need paper, powder, wad, shot.


For which we have... COMBO MERGES! Or should I say... "HAVE HAD COMBO MERGES SINCE JA2 CAME OUT!"

Available in a local store near you.

Quote:
NAS has a weird thing I discovered, you can right click on an attachment slot and it will bring up a pop up menu.


Yes, that's already been brought up a few times here, and will probably be the chosen interface if I can figure out how to make such a pop-up from scratch. I extended the assignment pop-ups to include Facility assignments, but I was building on top of an existing pop-up system then. I might have to copy The_Bob's work somehow to get this functional. It's a purely technical matter though, shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Quote:
For example I added a RAS bipod and a gripod and got a bipod bonus of 100% because the attachments were not mutually exclusive (oversight) and the bonuses (spell?) stacked.


Yeah... how does that have anything to do with what's being discussed here though?

Quote:
A good item system needs to allow the definition of how adding (changing) an item will affect its other properties instead of transforming the item into another item ID or adding values to its properties.


*Shrug* I'm not sure what you mean to begin with.

Quote:
Back then I used the example of a belt, a carbine hook, a water bottle, and a bottle stopper with a latch. Adding the carbine hook to the belt should *not* change the item ID of the belt, it should just be an attachment (not in the JA sense), which gives the belt new abilities.


Any limitations of the attachment/merge system are not relevant here... the transformation feature is exclusively meant to deal with items changing on their own, rather than as a reaction to other items attached or used upon them.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293582] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
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Update:

I've run into what looks like a bit of a problem while examining the code. Namely, this problem is NAS.

I could easily change an item into a new one, and there are functions that automatically check attachments and make sure that the new item can still hold all its attachments (invalid ones are automatically removed as far as I can tell).

However, because the NAS system is so friggin complex compared to OAS, I can't find any good way to change an attachment into a new item. It's not as simple as changing the item index number and letting the program sort it out - we need to find out what item the attachment is currently attached to, then alter the data for that item to cause the attachment to change. In other words, if I just change the attachment itself into a new item without messing with its "parent", the game might crash or the item might not actually change at all.

The problem of course is that I have never seen NAS before, and its complexity means I don't even know how to work with it. Without help from a coder experienced with NAS or just good enough to figure it out, it may be difficult if not impossible to make any changes to attachments without unattaching them first. I may be able to work around the problem somehow, but there would be no guarantees that it'll work...

Are any of the NAS coders still around to be contacted?

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293583] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cdudau
Warmsteel?

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293584] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Current incarnation is ChrisL's work.

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Captain

Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293585] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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Yeah, Warmsteel's not around, so... is ChrisL?

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293586] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
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Oh, WS was on the IRC like, last week or so. ChrisL, dunno ... userlist says he was online yesterday but I don't know how much time he currently has.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293588] Tue, 15 November 2011 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
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All I need would be an answer, so I'll give them both a PM.

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293611] Tue, 15 November 2011 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
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Headrock
I could easily change an item into a new one, and there are functions that automatically check attachments and make sure that the new item can still hold all its attachments (invalid ones are automatically removed as far as I can tell).


ChrisL is still around, though not as frequent as he was when NAS and NCTH were being introduced (see pages of discussion between him, myself and Smeagol re: conversion to NAS 0.7). The automatic check/add/removal is needed to prevent incorrect default inseparable attachment issues. In practice, removable attachments are just dumped to inventory, the merc's or to the map if no room. Inseparable attachments are the problem, hence code you see there. When an item is created via a merger, inseparable default attachments (and only inseparable default attachments are produced and removed as needed. Removable attachments do not pop-up on creation due to the exploitation potential. This and the expanded 12 default attachment limit allow all the "fake" built in attachments of original JA2 to be replaced by real integral attachments (inseparable attachments), as has been done in my projects.

The pop-up inseparable default attachment NAS feature I'm actually using as part of a work around for an unresolved map editor issue (unlike NAS, the Map Editor doesn't always supply the correct default attachments). Mergers have been setup with all guns that have default inseparable attachments, so that a non-destructive USE Merger of a Tool Kit into these guns will produce the same gun, but because this "new" gun is the product of a merger, it has all inseparable attachments.

Another example of this code's use is the pop-up foregrip on some machine pistols in my mods. When the stock is collapsed, the weapon does not have an integral grip (no entry in attachments.xml and not listed as a default). When one of these M.Pistols is converted to its extended stock form (different item index), the integral grip appears due to this NAS feature (and the grip being fully setup as a default attachment). On conversion back to its collapsed stock form, the grip goes away as it is not a default attachment, nor on the attachment list.

One thing is that there is still a potential for a crash if the produced item has an inseparable default attachment listed in items.XML, that is not on its attachment list. I've made that mistake several times.


Not sure if the above helps, but from the practical in-use side of modding that's how this NAS feature functions. Actually, a long time ago when I was thinking about a "transformational" capability, I aways thought of it as being a new merger type defined in the merger XML's. Instead of an entirely new feature, with new XML(s), would it be possible to leverage off of the existing merger infrastructure?
- add 2 new merger type(s) - solo item merger easy and hard, just as other mergers come in easy and hard flavours
- new code to trigger the merger without the need of a 2nd item, ie. the whole interface in-game for this capability
- no need to worry about the NAS end of things as it is already there, and presumably doesn't care about which specific merger type is creating the change in item index, ie. a new merger type would be treated just like the existing ones

The only problem would be that right now merger operations cannot be done on attached attachments. Ie. the scope has to be removed from the base weapon before you can merge something into the scope. A Self-Transforming Items should be able to transform while it is attached to another item, but then there would be a need to check if the resultant item is still a valid attachment for the base gun. This is the opposite of right now where the base weapon/item changes, and the status of attachments legality in-game has to be checked.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 November 2011 15:07] by Moderator

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293614] Tue, 15 November 2011 15:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
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Quote:
The automatic check/add/removal is needed to prevent incorrect default inseparable attachment issues.


I am so lost with all that inseparable attachment business, I don't think I've ever seen that at work, and I'm afraid I didn't understand half of what you're saying. But I also think it's not relevant to my problem - the use of the function to handle that stuff seems very straightforward, shouldn't be any kind of problem (at least none I can see until it's actually tested in practice).

Quote:
Actually, a long time ago when I was thinking about a "transformational" capability, I aways thought of it as being a new merger type defined in the merger XML's. Instead of an entirely new feature, with new XML(s), would it be possible to leverage off of the existing merger infrastructure?


I wouldn't recommend it, for several reasons. One is that the tags would be somewhat different from merges, including several possible results (I.E. 2 or even many more items resulting from a single transformation), text for the pop-up menu if used (otherwise, tags to handle backwards/forwards transforms), etcetera. It would be much neater to handle it with a separate XML - especially because in practice this system would work nothing like merges to begin with... which is part of the problem.

Quote:
[...] a new merger type would be treated just like the existing ones


That's where the problem is, because they can't be. This is a direct result of how we cause a merge, and how we'd cause a transformation. With a merge, you take one item and click it on another item's attachment boxes, triggering a merge. There are several required parameters provided by this method which facilitate the current merger system. With a transformation, the program only knows which item is being transformed, and the results it needs to create. While this doesn't sound so different, the code itself would be VERY different indeed. And again, it also requires very different data to appear in the XMLs.

Quote:
The only problem would be that right now merger operations cannot be done on attached attachments.


Which is precisely the problem I alluded to in my previous posts. To be able to do this, the program would need to know which item the attachment is attached to, and at which position. It has to alter the data of the PARENT ITEM in order to change the attachment item, otherwise (from what I'm seeing), the attachment will not change - i.e. the program will notice a discrepancy, and fix it by reverting the item to its original form immediately.

I think there must be ways to solve this issue, but my problem is that NAS itself is written in such a complicated way that I don't understand how it works AT ALL, or how to access/work with the data. In other words, I don't know how to figure out the parent item, how to figure out which attachment slot we're working with, etcetera. It's the same reason why merges don't work for attached attachments, and only one of the people intimately familiar with NAS may be able to figure out how to do this...

Quote:
A Self-Transforming Items should be able to transform while it is attached to another item, but then there would be a need to check if the resultant item is still a valid attachment for the base gun.


If I could get to the point where the only problem remaining would be to check whether the item is still a valid attachment to its gun, that would be great - because it means I got past the problems above (figuring out what gun it is we're talking about in the first place!!). The whole problem stems from the fact that as far as I can tell, you can't look at an item and tell which other item it's attached to. This can only be done in reverse: looking at a gun and telling which attachments it has. That's a serious problem which, if unsolved, would cripple the transformation system (i.e. you'd have to remove the attachment, transform it, then put it back on, like you would with a merger).

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Re: Self-Transforming Items (Pre-Project Discussion)[message #293662] Wed, 16 November 2011 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
Headrock
Quote:
The automatic check/add/removal is needed to prevent incorrect default inseparable attachment issues.


I am so lost with all that inseparable attachment business, I don't think I've ever seen that at work, and I'm afraid I didn't understand half of what you're saying. But I also think it's not relevant to my problem - the use of the function to handle that stuff seems very straightforward, shouldn't be any kind of problem (at least none I can see until it's actually tested in practice).


I don't think stock v1.13 has many examples of it implemented for the following reasons:
1) Starwalker just wasn't as merger happy as I was, also the whole reason the merger based Folding Stock System exists was my wanting something more realistic than the part-time folding stock of stock v1.13
2) v1.13 still uses the "fake" default attachments for stuff like integral grips, scopes,..., everything but integral grenade launchers it seems. I've eliminated all of them, therefore the concern that when an item is produced (Map Editor placement, Bobby Ray's, random enemy inventory generation, MerStartingGear.XML assignment, product of merger) all its inseparable default attachments are present when the item appears. The NAS code you're talking about is there to make sure those attachments appear and disappear as needed.

If you want to see the code in action, just try one of my mods, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of NAS, especially making it do things that WarmSteel and ChrisL never intended. In fact, there's an incomplete list of everything that requires NAS being active to function correctly in the FAQ's for my projects (note its the same list, but repeated in the context of each mod):

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288132#Post288132
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=287147#Post287147
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288593#Post288593

[Updated on: Wed, 16 November 2011 01:20] by Moderator

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