Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!!
| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295824]
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Tue, 27 December 2011 23:51  
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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Wow, I'm even more confused now that I've looked at that table...
From what I did understand though, if things were to be handled the way you describe there, I would have to have a dozen checks firing before even allowing a transformation to occur. This makes things even more complicated than they are now.
However, lets indeed try to figure out a working "standard", I.E. a system that would be simpler than the existing one, and still make sense, while in return imposing limits on modding. There are three primary options for this as I see it:
Option A:
A) Each IDA that can transform (hehehe another acronym we're all going to hate very soon) will ALWAYS be able to transform back to its original form. Thus if the gun has 2x integral optics which can be set to 4x, it can ALWAYS be transformed back to 2x. Making a one-way transformation is illegal.
B) If the weapon itself is also capable of transformations, it will always reset all its IDAs to their original state. Therefore, if we set the scope to 4x, then fold the weapon, it will revert to a 2x scope.
C) The weapon must always be able to hold ALL of its IDAs, regardless of how many different transformations you can do to it. Any transformed version of the gun which cannot hold all IDAs of the original gun is illegal.
In this way, the gun always has enough room for all its IDAs, so we don't need to erase or separate them at all while doing any transformations. This takes care of MOST of the possible scenarios.
However, it also means that the weapon returns to default state every time you transform it. Folding the stock returns the scope to 2x mode? Why? This would annoy players, who set their scopes to a certain mode during combat, then fold the weapon only to have their scope change undone.
Option B would be this:
A) All IDAs are completely untouchable - they cannot transform at all.
B) To change an IDA's function or mode, we need to transform the gun itself. The transformation deletes all IDAs and puts in new ones.
C) Any separable or inseparable attachment that is occupying a slot that should belong to an IDA is ejected to inventory upon transformation of the parent gun.
This is much simpler, and makes a lot of sense. But it means that the weapon needs to have many different versions of itself. In the above example, there are four versions: "2x Folded", "2x Unfolded", "4x Folded" and "4x Unfolded". Increase the number of versions exponentially for each integral attachment you have that should be able to transform, and each extra mode you want for any of these integral attachments.
The drawback is that this will easily inflate the number of items in items.XML (not to mention Item_Transformations.XML!). Therefore, it may not be a good idea to try this until we have a working templates XML, which will hold the parent item - while in Items.XML we only define the versions, i.e. how each version differs from the base (with one version not differing from the base at all).
So this version has no limit for modders, but does require them to do more work, and to inflate Items.XML. Therefore it would require a working templates system. I do hope to institute one in the near future, though I don't know how long it would take to make it operational - and it WILL mean a ton of work for modders until such time that the XML Editor can be taught how to read and edit templates.
And finally, Option C:
A) No default attachments. Option removed.
B) The weapon contains all bonuses from the attachments internally, and transformations to change these bonuses all result from transforming the gun itself.
This is similar to option B, but here we literally remove the concept of "integral" attachments completely. In other words, the 2x Mag Factor for example will come from the gun itself - with no scope installed in the scope slot.
This option takes slightly less work for the modder, but there still need to be lots of versions of the gun, with different bonuses for each version. Again, this means the gun has a lot of transformations available (thus lots of versions) but has no problem transforming back and forth as it pleases.
To be honest, I'm really not sure which option is the best. But I think that any option more complex than this (i.e. stipulating all sorts of extra rules or exceptions) will be utterly baffling. Heck, even the above is utterly baffling.
The main thing I've learned from this excruciating mental excercise (and I am refraining from posting the GIF from Scanners again even though that's exactly how I feel right now) is that there really is no way to handle this gracefully without giving something up. NAS opens up a lot of options, but it makes it very hard to make all these options work with one another. Where we made things more complex by allowing more attachments, we need to make it simpler by really defining to ourselves what an attachment IS and how we should treat it by the game...
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296074]
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Sun, 01 January 2012 09:14
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 Captain Colon |
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Messages:10
Registered:December 2011 |
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Some gripes about the new CTH system...first let me say I DO like the intention of it which, if I'm not mistaken, is to try and make firefights a more realistic and more intense by increasing the value of suppressive fire (especially at longer ranges when you might not have enough APs for a reliable aimed shot but could at least get off a short burst in the general direction) and I will say it does succeed very well in this regard. However, in my playing so far I've found that SMGs and pistols are damn near useless except in EXTREME close quarters (within 5-7 tiles). My IMP merc with 85DEX, 85WIS and 85MAR and the Sniper trait can spend five clicks to aim an SMG and still miss around 50-75% of the time unless I'm within that 5-7 tile range. And that's if I'm kneeling...if I'm standing, it's pretty much a guaranteed miss no matter what I do. Meanwhile, my admin enemies (playing on experienced, they shouldn't be too tough) are firing what appear to be unaimed/partially aimed shots (based on the fact that they can fire 2-3 per turn) and while they miss most of the time, every turn or two they get a lucky hit and my merc goes to the ground. I have Trevor using a shotgun with slugs and he can't hit anything reliably unless he's within 5-7 tiles of the enemy, crouching or prone, spending EVERY AP on aiming (it's like 8 clicks) AND has the bonus from shooting at that target previously.
Now to be fair, it isn't too unrealistic to have that kind of accuracy on a moving target with an SMG at 50-70 meters (from what I've read it seems to be 1 tile = 10 meters...correct me if I'm wrong). However, in the game I consider 5 tiles to be "pretty damn close" just because of how everything's rendered and scaled...it takes very little AP to close that distance moving, only a couple steps; so why am I constantly missing the guy who's only a few paces away?
TL;DR is I think everyone misses aimed shots a bit too much (CtH bonus per click for aiming too low) with the CtH changes and CtH drops off far too quickly with range...what if the CtH system was changed so that range to target affected CtH non-linearly? That way the curve could be tweaked to find a good balance to make short-range, low-AP snap shots more likely to hit without making it too easy to snipe targets at long range with few APs spent aiming.
Also, if anyone could point me to a link on how the CtH system currently works (like something that explains exactly how CtH is calculated from start to finish) I could probably give much more detailed and accurate feedback. Also sorry if this post reads poorly or doesn't make any sense...Happy New Year? 
*EDIT* Also feel like weapon conditions need some tweaking...it's not that they break too fast; they just lose accuracy and start jamming too early. I just started up a game and Spider had her gun jam on the first shot. FIRST SHOT OF THE GAME! I don't know if the game uses a numerical value for condition or just good/fair/poor, but either way, I think her Viking at 78% should be considered in good condition rather than fair especially if the game is using a good/fair/poor metric for likelihood of a jam.
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2012 09:24] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296079]
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Sun, 01 January 2012 15:29
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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I'll add some more and reply while I'm at it.
Quote:from what I've read it seems to be 1 tile = 10 meters...correct me if I'm wrong
Actually Sirtech designed it so that 1 tile = however much is required to make the game playable. They didn't make a working weapons simulator. As such, most weapons can appear to have more (or less) effective range than they would in real life. Balancing the system is also very difficult, though Wil473 is trying to rebalance the original NCTH values to make it work a little better within the confines of the game.
Quote:My IMP merc with 85DEX, 85WIS and 85MAR and the Sniper trait can spend five clicks to aim an SMG and still miss around 50-75% of the time unless I'm within that 5-7 tile range.
As DepressivesBrot pointed out, the Sniper traits will not help with a small weapon (unless you're using the old traits system, though I'm not 100% sure what happens then). And yeah, initially SMGs are not very effective beyond basic range, but their primary advantage is a (rather) stable autofire when crouched, especially with larger SMGs like the Colt 9mm which have low enough recoil that a strong merc can stabilize them. They should be your primary suppressive weapons during the early game, firing more rounds to get the odd hit or two, and fast enough to be used if the enemy gets in close. Mercs with pistols and MPs should try to get much closer. When scopes and foregrips become available, the SMG can become significantly more dangerous at up to 14 or even 20 tiles, of course.
Again, as DepressivesBrot pointed out (he's my unofficial pointing-out-things guy  ) there are problems with the item progression system, which was balanced for the old CTH system and unfortunately unchanged with the introduction of NCTH. OCTH prefers longer-ranged weapons in almost every circumstance, so almost all the pistols are introduced by Progress 40, while Sniper Rifles appear only after Progress 60. In NCTH this makes little sense, because it relies more on variety of weapons, with each weapon category having its own pros and cons. Again, Wil473 is currently working on changing the Coolness levels, but the basic 1.13 download still has all the pistols appear early and all the long rifles appear late.
Quote:I have Trevor using a shotgun with slugs and he can't hit anything reliably unless he's within 5-7 tiles of the enemy
Shotguns are significantly better with buckshot ammo in NCTH, especially when suppression values are pushed up (and they should be - the default value of 75 is very low and may cause suppression to not work at all beyond a certain progress level). With slugs, you'll actually need scopes to make your shotgun deadly at a greater range. And it is actually quite deadly thanks to the high damage output -- though by the time you get scopes you also usually get .50 rifles like the Beowulf which can produce better results, thus rendering the slugs less useful. This is another effect of the old weapon progression messing up NCTH. In any case, the shotgun is a great close-combat weapon, just stick to buckshot if you can for now.
Quote:so why am I constantly missing the guy who's only a few paces away?
Once again, since 1 tile DOES NOT EQUAL 10 meters, the perception of distances is flawed. Your mercs can't spot anyone more then 25-or-so tiles away, which is less than the length of some buildings (the Cambria Hospital is at least 70 tiles across, I think. Weapon ranges in the game are mainly built with comparison to sight-range, again to make the game workable and playable. There's no way to work around that. And since NCTH employs actual physics and realistic shooting effects rather than arbitrary numbers, the result is that 5 tiles of distance is actually a lot. If you assume that 1 tile is 10 meters, then 5 tiles is 50 meters, which is a long range for a pistol. If you assume that 1 tile is ~2 meters (based on the size of the visible objects in the game) then 5 tiles is 10 meters, and you should hit with every shot... It's a problem, which hopefully will be solved some day, but not right now. If you're upset about people being able to close the range very quickly, you could try upping the AP costs to move. Of course, this will make battles much longer.
Quote:CtH drops off far too quickly with range...
Scopes are extremely important for long-range shots. Until you get them, all ranged combat will be significantly more difficult.
Quote:what if the CtH system was changed so that range to target affected CtH non-linearly?
Snap-shots are not supposed to get much of a chance to hit the target. NCTH assumes that an aimed shot is practically required in order to get a realistic chance to hit the enemy at any real distance - unless the weapon is very easy to handle and the target is very close. It assumes that an unaimed shot is exactly that - unaimed. I.E. the gun is fired with a "flinch" reaction rather than with any real purpose. Reserve snapshots for very close engagements, esp. with a fast small weapon (pistol/MP). Alternately, long autofiring weapons (like LMGs) can be aimed while firing (rather than before firing) by leading the shots into the target, meaning that aiming beforehand is less relevant for such weapons, though it does still help in most cases.
Quote:Also, if anyone could point me to a link on how the CtH system currently works (like something that explains exactly how CtH is calculated from start to finish)
I've been working on this for a while, intermittently, though it will take a while more before I'm done. The system is not really complicated (I designed it to be simple), but explaining it is difficult because I want to show how things work in the game, which means adding lot of pictures. So it will take time.
Quote:Also feel like weapon conditions need some tweaking...it's not that they break too fast;
Download HAM 5. It allows reducing the speed of deterioration by any factor you want. HAM 5 also solves several problems with NCTH - though it WILL reduce hit probability even further. You're expected to fire more bullets, and it is highly recommended that you increase suppression values significantly beyond the default values.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296080]
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Sun, 01 January 2012 17:03
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| Captain Colon |
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Messages:10
Registered:December 2011 |
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According to the tooltip the sniper trait gives an aiming bonus for everything except pistols, so there should still be a pretty significant bonus and a resulting high CtH on a well-aimed shot with any non-pistol weapon. Anyway, I think I've got the values set to where they feel good to me.
http://pastebin.com/yrJ00YiN <-- CTHConstants I'm using
Not too many changes:
- NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE increased to 100 from 70
- DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE decreased to 10 from 15
- RANGE_COEFFICIENT decreased to 1.0 from 1.1
- VERTICAL_BIAS decreased to 0.25 from 0.5
- BASE_MARKS increased to 2.0 from 1.0
- BASE_DEX increased to 1.5 from 1.0
- AIM_CROUCHING_STANCE decreased to 1.0 from 1.25
- AIM_PRONE_STANCE decreased to 0.75 from 1.0
- NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE increased to 100 from 70
So far it's feeling like a pretty happy medium between Headrock's half a magazine to kill someone next to you and vanilla's laser death beams from across the map. I've noticed with these settings that when firing long auto bursts the first few shots will miss, then a couple hits, then misses...it seems to simulate raking a target with autofire very well (before these settings I found that auto bursts tended to either have one bullet hit, every bullet hit, or no bullets hit). I increased the values of marksmanship and dexterity (making each point more valuable) because frankly I could never really tell the difference between, say, an 85MAR merc and a 60MAR merc. Now I actually feel like I'm getting some CtH rewards in exchange for gutting an IMP merc's ability to do anything else. I also wanted to simulate the benefit of being able to use your knee for support while aiming from a crouched/kneeling position, so I put a fairly decent gap between how useful aiming is while standing vs how useful it is while crouching or prone...if you're crouched or prone behind cover you have more incentive to use aimed single shots or short aimed bursts, but on the move you're better off just spraying and praying.
*EDIT* Looks like Headrock replied while I was posting this...I am currently using HAM 5.5.1 with the tweaks I mentioned above and loving it. Many thanks to you and everyone else who continue to push new fun stuff
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2012 17:12] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296084]
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Sun, 01 January 2012 19:44
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:
- NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE increased to 100 from 70
- DEGREES_MAXIMUM_APERTURE decreased to 10 from 15
- RANGE_COEFFICIENT decreased to 1.0 from 1.1
- VERTICAL_BIAS decreased to 0.25 from 0.5
- BASE_MARKS increased to 2.0 from 1.0
- BASE_DEX increased to 1.5 from 1.0
- AIM_CROUCHING_STANCE decreased to 1.0 from 1.25
- AIM_PRONE_STANCE decreased to 0.75 from 1.0
- NORMAL_RECOIL_DISTANCE increased to 100 from 70
Hmmm, well those are indeed very mild settings - they make all guns significantly more accurate, by at least 75% in standing stance and over 100% in the other stances. It's probably going to feel better in the early game, with unscpoed pistols and SMGs, but I'm going to warn you straight away that you will be killed very often as soon as enemies start getting scopes... and once you get scopes you'll be right back to killing enemies as soon as they appear - making the game too easy. I could be wrong of course, so it'll be good if you could tell us what happens later on in the game...
BTW on BASE_MARKS and BASE_DEX: These affect the snap-shooting. The reason why marksmanship was set to weight 1 is because when snapshooting you are not really using marksmanship skill. Also by modifying the BASE you're actually decreasing the usefulness of aiming for good marksmen - they are simply better without any aiming.
Quote:According to the tooltip the sniper trait gives an aiming bonus for everything except pistols
Those tooltips were written for OCTH. I'm not sure what they do in NCTH since the effect of traits on NCTH was not added by me. I'll see if I can figure it out for you later tonight.
Quote:I've noticed with these settings that when firing long auto bursts the first few shots will miss, then a couple hits, then misses...it seems to simulate raking a target with autofire very well (before these settings I found that auto bursts tended to either have one bullet hit, every bullet hit, or no bullets hit).
Actually your settings clearly make autofire MORE ACCURATE than before, so what you're seeing is probably not a result of your changes.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296090]
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Mon, 02 January 2012 00:40
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:According to the tooltip the sniper trait gives an aiming bonus for everything except pistols
Ok, I've checked the NCTH functions, and this is what I found regarding this trait:
1) It raises the CTH "Cap". This means that a skilled sniper can make up for lack of desxterity, wisdom, marksmanship or experience level when calculating his maximal accuracy. Note that situational penalties notwithstanding, you should be able to reach your CTH Cap with any fully-aimed shot - so this means better aiming basically.
Note however that this bonus is only applied when using a scope.
As the character's skill and experience level improve, this bonus becomes less significant, and would eventually become meaningless for anything but the highest-precision shots (e.g. Barrett at 70+ tiles).
2) It reduces the "visual" range to the target, allowing easier shots at enemies outside visual range -- primarily by avoiding the "can't see target" penalty just because the target is outside of visual range. So it's great for weapons that can target enemies spotted by other mercs.
3) Reducing visual range to the target also translates into easier shooting through cover. Cover between the shooter and the target increases the visual range, which will normally result in penalties to aiming. Since the Sniper Trait helps reduce the visual range, those penalties are much more easily avoided - allowing the shot to be fired as though the cover wasn't there at all. Note of course that this only refers to partial cover - if you can't see the target you still get the "no line of sight" penalty to aiming, which is massive.
So overall, the Sniper Trait in NCTH actually does work primarily with weapons that would take long-range shots, through heavy cover, or outside visual range - and those would indeed be the sniper rifles and DMRs. I'm not sure whether there should be more effects, but the existing ones are pretty suitable IMHO. You will not find much use for this trait with short-range or even mid-range weapons.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296351]
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Fri, 06 January 2012 05:27
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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It is quite possible, actually, with minor modifications to the system, to make a vertical bias and add it as a separate tag. I've actually been thinking about doing it to control the spread of explosions with large/small fragment flight range.
Currently, the amount of vertical momentum given to the fragments (and in fact the angle at which they are fired, which are largely one and the same) is determined by range. Fragments with less range tend to shoot upwards more often than ones with higher range. So a mini-grenade sends many fragments flying up (and occasionally landing down on enemies within the kill zone), while a TNT explosion sends most of its fragments flying far away at rather shallow angles to the ground.
Or at least, it was mainly like that until I realized that basing vertical bias entirely on fragment range could pose issues. But with very light intervention I could externalize the bias so you can choose what you'd like. Therefore, you could make fragments with very long range which mostly fly upwards, or fragments with very short range that spread out more. Naturally, there's a reason why I wanted to control vertical bias in the first place, and that's because short-range fragments flying upwards are really ugly-looking. But I guess if it was a claymore, and you biased MOST of them upwards, you might have a better-looking effect.
My problem with Claymores is still that you don't have the correct interface to activate them. Claymores are fired on command, just like "remote detonator" explosives. I'd much rather for mercs to be able to lay down wire instead, like you would with a real claymore. Of course that's very wishful thinking...
Alternately, you could set up the claymore as a proximity mine - but mines in JA2 are sadly ineffectual in many combat situations...
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296575]
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Thu, 12 January 2012 00:46
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| LordHelmchen |
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Messages:1
Registered:June 2009 |
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Greetings.
After unpacking the HAM over a fresh install and 1.13 svn checkout (seperate dir, then c&p'ed) [btw: is this sane ? what would give the best of both worlds concerning 1.13 up-to-dateness and HAMminess?], creating a new male IMP merc only offers voice sets 1 and 3, not 2. Is this intentional and I just did not read all I shoud have? everything looks fine... must have been my mistake.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 January 2012 11:56] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296898]
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Wed, 18 January 2012 16:07
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| tag8833 |
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Messages:35
Registered:September 2010 |
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I'm doing a new playthrough with
SCI_113_Stable_r1343_2011126_gdo.7z
Ham 5.5.1 Alpha
UC v3.60
I ran into a bug, and will473 suggested I post it here. I'm in Sector C5, and I was using the sector inventory to pick up guns to sell to Tony. However, when I go to the tactical map to actually sell the items to Tony, all of the items on the ground in the sector disapear. Everything was working fine until I took Sector C5 and talked to Tony.
I had a theory about this being related to sorting the inventory using the HAM buttons atop the sector inventory, and the sorted items ending up in the water, but I tried to move everything to sector C6, and when I load the tactical screen for that sector, I lose the inventory as well. Now it appears that any sector, that I enter the tactical screen, loses its sector inventory (except for 2 rocks that are inaccessible from the sector inventory).
I once had a similar problem in an earlier play through with a previous version of UC 1.13, where containers would lose their items when I set them down. I'm going to try to load an earlier save. Is there a chance that this is a result of having bought and sold things from Tony?
Here is a link to a saved game:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ynruia665ywrlee
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #296973]
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Thu, 19 January 2012 19:53
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| Gambigobilla |
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Messages:693
Registered:July 2008 |
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Sometimes when you are shift+m'ing stuff around you could accidentally put items in a container. Try GABBI alt+O alt+E cheat to see hidden items.
[Updated on: Thu, 19 January 2012 22:25] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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First Sergeant
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #297014]
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Fri, 20 January 2012 06:18
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| Evo |
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Messages:9
Registered:July 2010 |
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I ran into the same problem, after I have posted about my problem (sector inventory just reappears -all original items placed in map-) I realized that my items were gone as well. However, i never put my items in map containers, what happened is that once all of my items in the sector inventory disappeared, i did the gabbi cheat and found out that all the original items are waiting to be discovered in the containers, again. But all of my items are gone.
I am guessing the map inventory just resets under some conditions. I never left items in sectors where this happened before (on the ground at least) so did not notice it. I do not think it is sector specific as it happened in various sectors at different times (with 2nd entrance, with 10th entrance etc.)
Extra: The new ai seems to be afraid of your weapon range and try to stay outside your firing range, just running back and forth most of the time. It is a good way to level up mercs but does not give the stress of old ai where if you missed the first runners you know you will be overrun. (not to mention elites and red shirts waiting in toilets to be punched to death after a loud gunfight
regardless, thanks to everyone involved, everything is great
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Private
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it, bitches!![message #297084]
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Sat, 21 January 2012 17:46
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| Friendly Fire |
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Messages:74
Registered:January 2006 |
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First a big thank you for your work !
I play an hybrid of ja113 4870 (the one from the wiki, no SVN nonsense for me), IOV 925, with WF maps and I just put HAM 551 in my JA113 data folder (VFS is in the same category with SVN for me).
It works well, I use OCTH, yes I am a dinosaur.
Only problem is whenever a militia picks something from the ground I get a CTD.
I guess it is linked to the message that should follow, because my mercs and the enemy pick things up without a problem. Is there a way to disable those messages ?
I managed to make some impact and frag explosives,using the JMich's XML editor (another big thank you for that) still testing the parameters to reach sensible results.
The almost certain death from fragments when the grenade lands in the square of the target is annoying though, since the fragments should add a risk factor, randomness, not certainty.
I had to fiddle with the range bonus values of chokes and extender since the IOV exe reads them as percentages and HAM 5 as flat values (why is that, BTW ? Percentages seem more logical to me).
Would it be possible to make the fragments deal no damage in the first 1 or 2 squares ? The explosive takes care of that close range reasonably enough.
Oh, almost forgot, I had repeated CTD when applying a crate or 7.62x54 to my PKM, no problem splitting the crate in sector inventory, so it was not very important, but you should know.
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Corporal
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it, bitches!![message #297085]
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Sat, 21 January 2012 17:48
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| reVurt |
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Messages:61
Registered:March 2007
Location: The Great White North, eh... |
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I've been testing pretty much every version of HAM 5 on top of only Tais' SCI v1343, linked to in the first post, and have never encountered this sector inventory bug. The one time inventory disappeared was after I had left items on the ground in a road sector and a wandering patrol passed through, after which most (but not all) of the items had been taken. That all said, I typically move items to warehouse them in mine sectors and at SAM sites, but at those locations, I've never noticed anything going missing. My current game is at progress 59, so I've seen a fair bit of Arulco by now.
So no, not happening with my vanilla HAM game.
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Corporal
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