Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335691]
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Thu, 11 September 2014 21:02
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The_Decoy |
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014 |
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So I heard about the new updates on JA2 and I couldn't believe this blast from the past was still being modded. I loved the game as a kid so I dig up my old gold copy and give it a try. The new 1.13 stable was amazing but still kind of crashy, but knowing everything in the old map kind of killed it for me and I ruined my first attempt with drop all enabled (running tony out of money and overloading the zone inventory till it got buggy) so I went looking for map mods. AR looked great, but it was on such an old build that I didn't really want to downgrade. This lead me to your mod, reading this thread I wasn't sure if you got the balance right or people just didn't understand what you were going for, but after seeing ARMY_USES_TANKS_IN_PATROLS and tanks moving in tactical I had to try it. I never used heavy weapons before because there simply wasn't a point, it seems like that was the needed change to make it feel like you are fighting an army, and not just a bunch of minions.
First attempt was with WF maps just to check it out, but I guess this is an insane mode map pack. I decide to spend all my money on mercs and just beat up the first few guys for guns, but I spawn in spotted by 2 enemies with SMGs... I still managed to suppress them with my machinegunner IMP (who spawned with 2 guns for some reason) and beat them down with blood and kaboom and take their crap, while mouse ran to hide in the building behind me and found a landmine... lol if this is the first mission I can't hang, I think I am going to restart in AR maps even with the loot issues.
I made my imp a machinegunner mainly to test your balance changes, granted I haven't gotten far at all but it seems to work perfectly. Aimed bursts at SMG ranges usually connect with 1 round and definitely suppress as expected. I will give more feedback as I do more testing.
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Civilian
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335717]
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Fri, 12 September 2014 16:22
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The_Decoy |
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014 |
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The only thing I meant was that some people were arguing about the balance, and before I had the chance to install I didn't know what to think of it. So far it seems hard but fair, but I haven't gotten very far.
Yea I'm used to enemies rushing with pistols for the first few days, no yellow shirts in this mod they start out ready for combat. No complaints I guess, it was just unexpected.
I saw the new imp starting gear posts, I just assumed that a better gun from something like machinegunner would override the one from marksmanship, it seemed odd getting a Spectre M4 as well as a TMP to start. I guess that makes sense though, you wouldn't want to make a heavy weapons guy and drop in with only a 40mm and a handful of grenades.
I do have one rather large complaint, I noticed the new Melody webpage and thought that was cool, but the new merc interactions with the weird chat boxes are terrible. Is there a way to disable these interactions and preferably keep the melody page? I couldn't find it in the INI and googling it failed me.
For example, I started the game and was immediately spotted through two windows getting out of the helo. Makes sense, a helo zipline happening across the street isn't exactly subtle. My very first move I tell blood to rush to the building and an enemy gets an interrupt and fires a wild burst. No one is injured but Grunty is suppressed and crouches, and apparently because of that my imp (who I hadn't touched yet) mounted his gun on gruntys head, starting a new conversation box pissing him off and giving grunty -3 relations with my IMP... So I reload, move grunty a square then continue on.
Later I'm leaving omerta and it starts the new chat system with blood yelling at my imp for slowing the group down, apparently I put a little to much weight on him and now everyone except hitman has -2 to my imp... I'm all for improving merc interactions but so far this is garbage, my people can't fight in close proximity to each other without automatically resting guns on eachother constantly.
*edit* this is on a fresh install of your mod + your AR compatibility pack. Only INI settings I changed at the start were no stealing from BR, tony always available, and slay stays forever. Although I'm tempted to turn the view range down just a notch or two, the maps are just so small compared to the view range it kinda kills the stealth game.
[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 17:07] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335731]
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Fri, 12 September 2014 19:16
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The_Decoy |
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014 |
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Thank you for that. Odd I didn't notice this feature playing the newer 1.13 "stable" release.
Are you interested in feedback on weapon balance? I realize you are trying to make the combat more realistic, are you also trying to make the weapons more realistic? I happen to know a LOT about guns, I realize some things are purely done for balance, but I am noticing a couple completely unrealistic quirks that could be tweaked. As a pre warning, I'm not talking about changing the way anything is calculated, just what numbers should go on what guns.
A simple way of explaining the difference in guns would be that range, damage, and accuracy (velocity and bullet mass in the real world) are based on the caliber and modified by the barrel length. The model of gun would further modify the accuracy, and determine gun handling characteristics/rate of fire/reliability and such.
For example, I noticed the UMP45 is completely outclassed by the UZI 9mm, being 5 points shorter in range and damage. It fires a larger round out of a barrel that is only slightly shorter, so the UMP should have slightly higher damage than the UZI with only couple points less range. It has the 2 round burst which is correct, but it definitely should have better range and damage than (for example) the Beretta 92f pistol. It doesn't make any sense that an SMG firing a .45acp round out of an 8" barrel has 4 less damage and only 1 more range than a pistol firing a 9mm round out of a barrel under 5" in length.
Is there a hard number for what 1 point of range and 1 point of "time" translates to? That would make it easier to figure out.
[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 19:21] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335735]
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Fri, 12 September 2014 20:11
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Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011 Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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The_DecoyThank you for that. Odd I didn't notice this feature playing the newer 1.13 "stable" release. Because it isnt included there.
Quote:Are you interested in feedback on weapon balance? I realize you are trying to make the combat more realistic, are you also trying to make the weapons more realistic? I happen to know a LOT about guns, I realize some things are purely done for balance, but I am noticing a couple completely unrealistic quirks that could be tweaked. As a pre warning, I'm not talking about changing the way anything is calculated, just what numbers should go on what guns. To begin with there're several harsh limits to realism: the size and flatness of the maps, (in)competence of the AI, the use of a hitpoint system etc., just to name some important.
The results are compression of the gun ranges at certain points, the unrealistic amount of tiles you can traverse in a single turn etc.
Quote:For example, I noticed the UMP45 is completely outclassed by the UZI 9mm, being 5 points shorter in range and damage. It fires a larger round out of a barrel that is only slightly shorter, so the UMP should have slightly higher damage than the UZI with only couple points less range. It has the 2 round burst which is correct, but it definitely should have better range and damage than (for example) the Beretta 92f pistol. It doesn't make any sense that an SMG firing a .45acp round out of an 8" barrel has 4 less damage and only 1 more range than a pistol firing a 9mm round out of a barrel under 5" in length. Your comparison omitted several important factors like:
- The UMP45 is more silent (50 vs. 40 loudness), has way better handling (8 vs. 11), is lighter and can take better attachments, like the default foregrip.
- The Uzi cools down faster and has lower recoil.
- The caliber properties: while having lower damage, the .45 has a 1.35 multiplier against flesh.
Pistol stats are unrealistic to save them from oblivion.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335740]
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Fri, 12 September 2014 22:26
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The_Decoy |
Messages:4
Registered:September 2014 |
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I noticed the loudness but I didn't bring it up, generally the larger the caliber the harder it would be to suppress so doesn't make much sense that the UMP is quieter as well. There is the fact that a .45 starts out subsonic while a 9mm doesn't unless you use subsonic loads, but the 9mm doesn't stay supersonic for all that long and I have fired both .45 and 9mm pistols (and a few 9mm long barrels including the UZI) and I can tell you the .45 is seems louder at the source, although the difference isn't all that much they both make your ears ring without ear plugs. It's enough you can tell the apart though.
I didn't notice the caliber multiplier, that puts the UMP on par with the UZI damage wise. Still rather strange though as the .45s larger round will generally have much more energy, assuming similar loads and barrel lengths.
I know this isn't a good reference and I don't know how you could get data on something like this, but from my personal experience the UZI had the worst recoil of all the 9mm long guns I have fired. It actually surprised me how with the exact same ammo load between the two, firing an UZI next to a 9mm AR made the AR feel like a toy. The AR you could spit out rounds as fast as you wanted and the recoil was just a slight push backward, the sights would barely move on the target. The UZI doesn't really push back at all, the barrel just wants to climb and pull to the side for some reason. As I said, terrible reference for trying to inject realism into the gun stats. I have not had the chance to fire a UMP.
I didn't realize it was a 10-1 conversion on distance squares and I understand the need to buff pistols to not make them useless, but I think I have a better idea to balance them out. I agree a loaded pistol is a much better weapon than a knife to anyone who isn't legally blind I, and it should show in game. In my experience the main bonus of pistols is that they are very easy use at close range. Under 15m or so skill isn't even really a requirement, you just point and shoot enough times and you will hit something, past that it takes some practice aiming or you are wasting ammo, and anything 30m+ is one hell of a shot with a pistol even if it has a scope, although that does make it easier. I think the best way to model that in game would be to lower the ranges but increase the accuracy, it would take some testing but I would start with cutting the range in half and doubling the accuracy bonus. I don't know the formula for how range affects accuracy penalties, but I think someone with very high marksmanship skill should still be able to hit targets at medium range if they take the time to fully aim, but anyone that even knows how to fire it should be able to reliably hit targets without much aiming under 5 tiles.
[Updated on: Fri, 12 September 2014 22:29] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #335752]
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Sat, 13 September 2014 12:45
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Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011 Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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Yes, most combat packs went to the backpack slot to make room for the patrol belts.
knightofniSome additional feedback on armors :
[...]
3. However, i feel that high end armor provides insufficient protection against non-AP pistol rounds. I frequently get hit for low (10-20) amounts of damage when shot at by 9mm SMG. I don't think it's rounds ignoring the coverage of the armor (it'd be in the 20+). From what i understand, high-end modern ballistic armor provides very good protection against pistol type rounds. Gameplay-wise, one of the downside of the current system is that i don't feel that i 'need' AP ammo. 9mm FMJ is up to the task (against twaron armoured opponents). Maybe reduce the armor penetration for pistol / smg rounds ? (i'd hate to see the raw damage reduced)
4. Now that's sort of nit-picking, but i was surprised to see the flak vest giving the same level of protection than the kevlar vest. I was under the impression that a (real-life) flak vest would offer limited protection against bullets, while a kevlar vest should help against low-powered rounds. The new revision comes with the following [color:#009900]changes[/color]:
Flak Vest: protection 15, coolness 2
Field Uniform: protection 20[color:#009900]->18[/color], coolness 4[color:#009900]->3[/color]
Kevlar Vest: protection 15[color:#009900]->20[/color], coolness 2[color:#009900]->4[/color]
Twaron Vest: protection 15[color:#009900]->23[/color], coolness 3[color:#009900]->5[/color]
Spectra Vest: protection 25, coolness 6
SWAT Vest: protection 20[color:#009900]->25[/color], coolness 5[color:#009900]->7[/color]
Dyneema Vest: protection 30, coolness 9
--
Some comparisons:
Stock 1.13
Pistol Caliber AP: 0.75 Protection Multiplier
Assault Rifle AP: 0.75 Protection Multiplier
SAP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier
SDO
Most Pistol Caliber AP: 0.8 Protection Multiplier
9x21mm AP: 0.65 Protection Multiplier
9x19mm AP Overpressured: 0.6 Protection Multiplier
5.7x28mm/4.6x30mm AP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier
Assault Rifle FMJ: 0.7-0.6 Protection Multiplier
9x39mm AP: 0.5 Protection Multiplier
Anti-Material AP: 0.2 Protection Multiplier
Given that pistol caliber damage and armour protection values are largely the same and only high power caliber damage values went up, i don't see much need for changes. Keep in mind you also can wear ceramic/titanium plates on top of that.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336216]
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Fri, 26 September 2014 20:48
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Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011 Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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VinnieClaymoreThis mod seems to have a focus on balance. Am I correct in assuming that this means that things are generally "less realistic" than in stock 1.13 / other mods? What I mean by "less realistic" is that things that work in the real world (like x7 battle scopes on ARs/BRs for example) don't work in SDO [...] It's the ago-old singe shot versus autofire and realism versus game balance problem.
For various reasons auto-fire is superior compared single shots in a direct competition.
Can't compete in damage, because there aren't that much two-handed single shot-only guns anyway and consecutive hits in a volley increase the damage of each hit, increasing the damage exponentially quickly.
You can make them more accurate, but this quickly reaches a limit, because this can be easily offset by just firing enough volume of bullets.
This is linked to another mechanic: aiming is a process, not a state. A big chunk of the ap-cost for each try is for firing the gun and aiming, which have to be "paid" each time. In comparison adding more bullets to a volley is very "cheap", making it more appealing most of the time.
So one lifeline is to shift the combat distance of single shots in the increased field of view granted by scopes. They can carry various penalties to hamper accurate long-range fire and potentially give single shots more engagement time/distance before auto fire becomes superior again. However this also comes with a drawback: as the AI can't use sight range increasing devices as effectively as the player (mainly because of memory issues), equipping the whole player squad with sight range increasing scopes would give a too big advantage, making the game too easy after a certain point.
That's the reason most assault rifle lost the possibilty to mount such high magnifying scopes as the battle scope 7x (coincidently they can't mount the scope 2x any longer, too). Nearly all battle rifles with the caliber 7.62x51mm and such should accept the battle scope 7x however (their recoil is worse "enough").
Quote:[...]because you / people feel that they would be [overpowered]? It's a one-person-project.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336336]
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Tue, 30 September 2014 12:22
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Swant |
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Messages:29
Registered:April 2011 |
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I don't know is this is the best place to post but..
First problem:
I dont get the option to reinforce with mobile militia if Im attacking an area and the militia is in the same area as me. It works in the cities with normal milita
Second problem:
When I playing with MANUALLY EQUIP MILITIA on and AR SCALING MAP LOOT, the guns that I find and are in "holsters" for ex the gun in the rebel hideout basement will disappear. The militia will take them but then they are gone and the milita wont drop dem. The other guns will the milita take, use and drop. When playing AR DEFAULT MAPS the guns that I "find" seems to work with the milita.
(this is at least the conclution I came to after some testing)
Third problem/question:
Is it possible to change the Mercs character trait? (I want Scope to be loner instead of sociable)
This is what I have installed:
Ja 2
SCI_SDO_RequiredCoreMod_Unstable_Revision_7476_on_GameDir_2139
AR+SDO_Unstable_Revision_7476_on_GameDir_2139
[Updated on: Tue, 30 September 2014 12:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336615]
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Sun, 12 October 2014 16:58
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TWJunky |
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Messages:94
Registered:November 2012 Location: Austria |
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hey Strohmann i am playing your latest sdo mod but
i cant seem to find the exe file for your newest unstable build. Furthermoe the link to the wildfire maps is broken in the svn section. now i am using the 7535 build exe. everything seemed to be working ok, until the fist fighting in san mona. when i down my last opponent the clock cursor is displayed and doesn't go away. can somebody please help me with this.
[Updated on: Sun, 12 October 2014 20:46] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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Re: 1.13 Stock Data Overhaul[message #336698]
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Wed, 15 October 2014 12:39
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TWJunky |
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Messages:94
Registered:November 2012 Location: Austria |
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do i have to modify the xml itself or can i do it via the ini editor?
[Updated on: Wed, 15 October 2014 12:40] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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