Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317660]
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Tue, 23 April 2013 04:45
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Peal |
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Messages:259
Registered:August 2007 Location: Germany |
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dethica
They based their concept art on JACf or just took Coreplay's concept art and slapped their logo on it.
Even though bitcomposer probably owns all the assets, I do not approve of this level of laziness.
This isn't lazy at all, in fact it's pretty common in pre production to sketch artworks based on existing pictures.
I'll do it all the time, because everything else would be a waste of time.
It's about getting a presentation ready,in order to maintain production and investment. And ofc to sketch the project's style and aesthetics.
For the sake of art, they do need to make an Kickstarter Campaign, have a break!
You don't know in what context they did it. Maybe they did this even on purpose, just to show bitComposer their vision of Flashback.
No better way to communicate what you have in mind by taking an old picture of old content just to draw a new concept art, for a new vision.
[Updated on: Tue, 23 April 2013 04:55] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317696]
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Tue, 23 April 2013 20:09
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Max_for_Hire |
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Messages:28
Registered:March 2009 |
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Lets stay optimistic and spread the word.
If they manage to deliver a solid JA game, one that can serve as a new platform for modders, then we'll be set up for the future.
Reading their Mission-statement on the KS-Page. I feel far more at ease than I did with the latest JA we got.
[Updated on: Tue, 23 April 2013 20:18] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317724]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 00:42
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Mauser |
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Messages:756
Registered:August 2006 Location: Bavaria - Germany |
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Well well, looks like i have found the first Kickstarter project worth my money and faith!
Having a dedicated turn based design company do it, is probably the only right way and best thing one can hope for, after the past failures.
Full Control has the big benefit on being able to see both how to NOT do a JA game *BIAcough* and what the hardcore fans expect it to be (basically 1.13 with a modern 3D engine and MASSIVE modding abilities).
So the challenge will be, to do a game as accessible and smooth as the new XCOM, but with the strategic and tactical depth as well as gunpornapalooza of 1.13, but still with the distinct humor, great characters and voice acting and expanded RPG elements of the original JA2.
It sure is a lot to live up to, but on the other hand, they really only have to copy and integrate what others have already done successfully and wrap it up in a nice, smooth package, whilst avoiding unneccesary experiments and "innovations" like the plague and generally LISTENING TO THE GODDAMN FANS (here at BP)!
oh, one more thing: i will only pledge my support and money to Kickstarter, if either modding tools are being included from the start or being made a reasonable stretch goal at least. Can you promise us that, JAFTeam?
And actually, i
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First Sergeant
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317727]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 01:39
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sardonic_wrath |
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Messages:48
Registered:June 2011 |
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I am not a programmer, but I don't quite see why developers always make it sound like making a game moddable requires a lot of effort & funds.
Of course there are fancy editors which can be used by everyone and their grandmother to create simple stuff, mostly very limited to not confuse anyone...
I don't have the feeling that it paid of for any game that had them. Mostly it just results in lots of isolated simple mini "mods" with questionable quality, and interest in the game fades as quickly as it would have without editors.
Proper modding is always done by very skilled people and by people with enough decdication to familiarize themselves with more complex stuff, to venture into unknown terrain so to speak.
Level designers etc. working for a game aren't necessarily programming experts, so I think the tools they use should be good enough for modders, no matter how unpolished/complex/unappealing they may seem to unexperienced users.
Designing the game code to be modular and flexible in regard to changes and additions should be in the interest of the developer anyway, for patching, DLCs etc...
And if a game developer conciously puts in unnecessary barriers for modders, in fear that modders undermine their ability to monetize with DLCs - well that just shows they are not confident in the quality they can or rather willing to deliver.
I really hope Full Control is smart about this.
Modding has led to incredible sucess stories... ArmA/DayZ, minecraft, jagged alliance of course, and many more.
And they didn't necessarily put effort into making their games moddable - they just didn't deliberately made them unmoddable.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 April 2013 01:41] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317746]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 10:58
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JAFTeam |
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Messages:157
Registered:April 2013 |
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First of all let me tell you that we are working on a first update for the KS-Page. We are also, right now, discussing the pledge levels. Let me now try to answer the questions here (hope I don't forget about anything, still early in the morning here):
1) Modding: Yes. We do want to have that. Not with the 350k from the beginning (Example: It's not in the budgetplan if we reach 350k but depending on sales afterwards it is still possible). It is definitely within our stretch goals. We can't yet tell which assets will be part of such a toolkit but a map-editor is something like place number 1 on our personal list.
Flugente: We won't limit Items. Who the hell would come to such an idea?
sardonic_wrath: You know, such tools need to be optimized, too. We can't just release all the tools and assets we have. Those wouldn't be comfortable (I know, at the Pit this doesn't matter but everywhere else the situation is quite different). But also we can't just release all the source-code (at least not right from the beginning, eh?). Since we are using Unity and have some external plugins (actually quite some) we have to look into what we can use and what not. But Unity also brings along the possibility of not hiding too much from you guys. So yeah, you'll prbly be able to mod it with your own tools in the end
2) For those interested in what we do with Unity in terms of graphics feel free to have a look at Space Hulk. Screenshots and the teaser trailer can be found here: http://www.spacehulk-game.com/media.html and the presentation to Gamespot can be watched here: http://www.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/video.html?sid=6406091 (please note that some things aren't in there like some proper animations and at the time of that demo the game was still pre-alpha. Lot's of camera-through-the-walls-things and so on).
About our Concept-Arts for JA: Flashback let me say that this is the direction we'd love to take the franchise to. Not directly into comic-cell-shaded stuff, but with a bit more color at all. You know, especially this Back in Action was very pale in terms of graphics. We'd like to change that to achieve a better atmosphere. Stronger colors and still fucked up (in a positive way) - that's the way we want to go.
3) About 1.13: Most of us play JA2 only with 1.13 (and customized options. Everyone likes it a bit different). But you know, we just cannot bring the same complexity right from the beginning (oh well, if you throw like 3 - 5 million at us, we prbly can ). If I must speculate about the playtime however which we can or will offer for the price we have on KS I'd say it'll be more than most modern tripple super duper AAA budget shooters (which isn't too hard of course).
4) @Kaerar: Well, we might have the chance to invite some pitters too Let me see what I can achieve after the campaign.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 April 2013 10:59] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317749]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 11:47
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Shanga |
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Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000 Location: Danubia |
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One suggestion for the improved KS page (not original, just what I saw others do):
State your stretch goals in clear bold letters. And don't be afraid to dream. I know, this requires a lot of foreplanning and you might be reticent to commit numbers to something that's only thin air atm, but if you want proper funding, this is the way to do it.
As Braben said, a decent game nowdays isn't even made with $2 million (about the amount they got). That's just to prove there's a massive interest in the game and more private funding can be negociated.
If you put down clear stretch goals, you might be surprised. Modding and support for fan made DLCs could be one. That btw, would be a move that would make headlines, if JAF would think of a way to get out of the greedy DLC trend and turn into a fair share of profits with the fans. Hell, it would put the industry on its head. Imagine a platform like Apple Store where fans can submit their own DLCs for free or a reasonable price. You stand to make a lot of money without raising a finger for many years to come.
PS: If the above works, either you hire me or you name your first baby Shanga. Your choice
[Updated on: Wed, 24 April 2013 11:49] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317751]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 12:41
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Tyxe |
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Messages:78
Registered:May 2012 Location: France |
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I just checked Space Hulk.
Graphics are nice and it looks like a fun game.
But JA 2 (not even talkng about 1.13)gameplay is much more complex than Space Hulk or newer Xcom
My biggest fear would be a similar "simplistic" gameplay than in those 2 games.
The most important thing i want to know for your game is the level of complexity of the Turn Based gameplay.
I want the same level of detail of TB combat as in vanilla JA 2.
I don't want a kind of "new Xcom" gameplay for a JA game.
A crystal clear statement about that would be appreciated.
If you can't guarantee the TB combat details of vanilla JA 2, i won't be interested and that's it.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 April 2013 12:42] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317753]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 13:37
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sardonic_wrath |
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Messages:48
Registered:June 2011 |
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fair enough... this all sounds quite promising.
I think its a good thing that you are being transparent, especially in regard to 1.13.
With 1.13, I usually spend a good 2 days in the .ini editors before actually starting a game. Its quite easy to break the game balance (or rather impossible not to), and at the current state players have to moderate themselves not to exploit balance flaws.
This is perfectly okay for a mod, but not for a proper game obviously. In the end a lot of funding comes from more casual players, who enjoyed the original games back then but probably would despair with 1.13. Full control has a responsibility to those players as well.
I really do hope you stick with a traditional AP system. The boardgame-esk system in the new XCOM was fun at first, but very quickly got very boring because it left little room for desicion making and was very unflexible.
It's understandable that a game developer feels the urge to create something new rather than just improve or copy. But the AP system - it just works perfectly, and some of the 1.13 features are easy to implement, easy to grasp and have been playtested for years by the community. Which, mind you, has lots of casual gamers too, not only realism freaks and gun nuts.
Specifically I urge you to implement the following features in some form:
1) Supression fire. Losing APs while bullets fly around your head... it's really not a difficult system to grasp for player, to visualize within the game or to explain in a tutorial.
The implications for tactics and gameplay have proven to be extremly interesting.
The concept of supression fire exists in quite a few games of newer making. The new XCOM has it of course, but also games of other genres. For example Company of heroes. Or first person shooters that will blur your vision when under heavy fire.
2) Higher range of APs. Players might have to add and substract in a range of 100 instead of 30, but they still won't need a calculator next to the keyboard. In return, it allows for much deeper and richer gameplay without adding new elements. Mercs might have different movement costs, weapons differ in reload and shooting costs, etc.
I'd vote for something like 3 settings - normal APs, half APs and double APs, with costs dynamically adjusting to it. Half APs would be something like an arcade mode - since AP costs would be rounded and become the same in cases, choices to make would reduce, equipment would get more similar etc.
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Corporal
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317766]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 16:53
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sardonic_wrath |
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Messages:48
Registered:June 2011 |
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JAFTeamWe want to hear the feedback. Also on the AP system. So we can filter thorugh it and see what people want.
heh, we heard about the same thing from the Back in action developers. Only that they decided to do the opposite of what everyone wanted...
Really hope you are sincere about listing to your customers and don't just play us during the kickstarter duration. That being said - I have quite a good feeling about this
One more thing I'd like to stress - one of the things that made Jagged Alliance great was the variety of ways you could approach the assault on a sector, whereas in the new XCOM, every battle was more or less the same.
You could attack with 2 squads from two sides, wait until nighttime and infiltrate, blow holes in walls, lay mines & remote charges,... and any combination of those of course.
I really hope you will be able to recreate this feeling.
Of course I realize that in an destructible environment is much harder to implement in a modern 3d game than it is in the old tile based engine. I suppose I could even live without it if need be - if you give us other tactics in return, like for example covert ops or something like this.
You probably already have, but if not - be sure to check out Silent storm series for inspiration. A great game, great engine, and it also has a cold war setting and base of operations (no real management though)
Also have a look at the spin-off "Hammer & Sickle", it has a very strong rpg focus. Almost feels like a traditional rpg at times. Cold war setting as well.
A rudimentary Multiplayer would be a nice stretch goal I think. Doesn't need to be fancy, just two teams of mercs on one of the campaign maps.
Good old Incubation did a good job at this, and the 1.13 multiplayer would probably be fun too if it worked probably. Silent storm also had a very simple multiplayer if I recall correctly, just somethings the devs made for office fun that could be enabled via console.
In a Turn based game you don't have to worry about lot of things that many multiplayer games struggle with.
I read something about the possibility of an ipad version... personally I couldn't care less, but if it limits the PC version even in the slightest way, I am very strongly against it... I'd prefer a strech goal NOT to make an Ipad version in that case
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Corporal
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Re: Full Control to make new Turn Based Jagged Alliance game...[message #317774]
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Wed, 24 April 2013 17:39
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Max_for_Hire |
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Messages:28
Registered:March 2009 |
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I think you guys are doin' it right:
Staying reasonable and transparent in your dealings with the Pitters, Backers and JA fans in general.
JA-BiA left some people ( quite a lot IMO ) hanging and our hops for a new-gen JA-Platform got hung too.
Much rests on you people.
The KS campaign is still early and many things have yet to be addressed.
I will yell at you to "shut up and take my money" soon enough.
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Private 1st Class
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