Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » JA2 Complete Mods & Sequels » UC/DL 1.13 & AFS » DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH
DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320015]
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Sat, 18 May 2013 10:23
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wsmithjr2013 |
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Messages:50
Registered:March 2013 Location: New Jersey |
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Been playing DL-1.13 lately. Ripping my hair out trying to take over mine sectors without the whole place getting blown to oblivion or losing half my squad in the process, but that's not what this post is about.
I'm playing the game on Experienced difficulty with NCTH (default). I had hired Hitman to be my militia trainer while my main squad roams the countryside. Hitman helped the militia fend off a number of counterattacks in Drassen. Well, "helped" would be a euphemism. After several battles, armed with a fully repaired M1A1, he has taken 51 shots and connected with 4 of them. (At one point, it was 29 with 1 hit.) Almost all of these have been at full aiming and not crazy distance either. Most of the time, he's in the little guard house with the switch (which experience has taught me is not the safest place to be) and taking pot shots at all the enemies attacking from that direction. His MRK is 88, so it sure seems he should be hitting a lot more often.
As I took over Chitzena, I hired Stephen to also train militia and he arrived in Drassen due to not yet having taken over the NW SAM site. He arrived just before another attack on Drassen and so was in position to aid Hitman in the defense. The only weapon I had readily available was a Walther P99 which I gave to Stephen. In that battle, Stephen was in the same building as Hitman covering the south side while Hitman "covered" the west side. Stephen fired off 18 shots and connected with 9 of them; again all on max aim. His MRK is 83.
So, why the huge disparity with marksmanship between the two guys? Both mercs just have the main gun, no extra optics. Hitman's lack of effectiveness was bugging me all along, but the comparison with Stephen broke the camel's back. I probably wouldn't be so surprised if the results were reversed, but it makes absolutely no sense to me that the merc with the higher marksmanship and longer-ranged weapon, is connecting with 5% of his shots vs 50% for another merc. Is there some hidden secret of the TH calculations that I'm not understanding? Stephen is 1 level higher than Hitman; can that have something to do with it (it shouldn't if you ask me)? Truth be told, I know there's a difference between NCTH and OCTH and that's the extent of my knowledge of the two. In my game I haven't noticed any other mercs so consistently bad as Hitman, though they all have their moments.
So, can anybody help me understand what is going on here or is there something screwy with the TH calculator.
I've since given Hitman a different weapon but not yet had a chance to test it out to see if there's any difference.
Thanks for any comments.
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Corporal
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320025]
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Sat, 18 May 2013 16:58
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wsmithjr2013 |
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Messages:50
Registered:March 2013 Location: New Jersey |
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UrbyTry purchasing Iron sight for your rifle, I was noticing that anything >Handgun performs horribly without even the most basic of sight attachments.
Thanks for the comment. I guess I can give Hitman a pistol for a while until I can get some optics. Just seems a little counter-intuitive to me that a pistol is more effective. Most of my team doesn't have optics, which may explain how Slay misses many of his shots with a Scout sniper rifle, but at least he hits 39% of the time. I did get a couple when I visited Tony. I try not to buy too much stuff via the laptop/BR and take a more "live off the land" approach, but that doesn't seem to be working so well for me.
Anyway, I'll make optics a much higher priority. Thanks.
P.S. Just checked and you can't get any kind of optics except a Laser Sight for an M1A1. Is the gun just that bad compared to others? Razor has been using one, but I expect Razor to miss almost all of his shots which is why he has 53 blade attacks to account for his 29 kills.
[Updated on: Sat, 18 May 2013 17:05] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320026]
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Sat, 18 May 2013 17:29
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grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006 Location: France |
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I have no sure answer for your problem, just a few hints maybe:
-NCTH has complicated math behind it, and not only MRK is taken into account. WIS, DEX, EXP level count a lot, in different weight depending on the NCTH part.
Can you sum up the stats of each merc as a reminder please?
-NCTH only shows aperture size, not the real chance to hit. Sometimes, the mercs' view is blocked, and we don't pay attention to it. Then, many shots will miss even if we have a good NCTH. Try and see if Hitman was shooting with a very clear view, sometimes windows and doors are tricky.
-Did your 2 mercs have exactly the same weapon?
-How were health, stamina and morale? They all count very much in accuracy
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Master Sergeant
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320043]
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Sat, 18 May 2013 22:36
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wsmithjr2013 |
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Messages:50
Registered:March 2013 Location: New Jersey |
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GrimI have no sure answer for your problem, just a few hints maybe:
-NCTH has complicated math behind it, and not only MRK is taken into account. WIS, DEX, EXP level count a lot, in different weight depending on the NCTH part.
Can you sum up the stats of each merc as a reminder please?
Name LVL MRK AGI DEX WIS
Hitman 4 88 77 40 76
Stephen 5 83 71 78 94
Grim-NCTH only shows aperture size, not the real chance to hit. Sometimes, the mercs' view is blocked, and we don't pay attention to it. Then, many shots will miss even if we have a good NCTH. Try and see if Hitman was shooting with a very clear view, sometimes windows and doors are tricky.
Tried to load a photo but not sure how to do that. But the view for 95% of the shots by Hitman were vs enemies in the open, no cover at all. Maybe crouching or laying in the road, but nothing to block LOS. Hitman was crouching behind the window of a building. I've had shots hit the wall that the merc is right next to, which makes no sense, but that wasn't the case in this situation. Stephen was in the same position but actually had to deal with bushes and trees in the way. Yet he was much more successful in taking out enemies in spite of various obstacles. I got the feeling that the enemies could have been jumping up and down waving their arms at Hitman who still wouldn't have been able to hit them.
Grim-Did your 2 mercs have exactly the same weapon?
No, that's part of my issue. Hitman had a 91% repaired Thompson M1A1 (Acc 30, Rng 20) while Stephen had a 88% repaired Walther P99 (Acc 6, Rng 12). I would expect Hitman to be much more deadly to enemies given the similar cirstances they faced; all single fully-aimed shots. (Dirt is turned off.)
Grim-How were health, stamina and morale? They all count very much in accuracy
Both mercs were 100% health and average morale. Stephen had just arrived so he was 90+% stamina and Hitman was at least 75+% stamina.
Is the answer to go back to OCTH? I understand the UC/DL/AFS mods have had some changes made to NCTH to improve it, so I just use the default for that mod as I don't know the differences.
Thanks.
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Corporal
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320046]
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Sat, 18 May 2013 23:16
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grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006 Location: France |
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Once again, i don't pretend to have the answer, but i can give you a couple hints:
-Hitman has a VERY low DEX (40 is really bad). DEX has a good weight in NCTH, maybe he misses a lot because of that. How is the aperture size with full aim when you shoot? Compared to Stephen and his P99?
-Exp level has some good weight too.
-The Thompson: it isn't a very good weapon. You should try shooting auto with it, its only advantage. Moreover hitman seems to have "auto weapons" skill!
-I don't know why, but pistols tends to be pretty accurate, more than NCTH shows.
-Scopes are very important with NCTH, yes. If you want to be accurate, use one. Else, spread lead with busrt/auto or with many pistol shots
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Master Sergeant
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320056]
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Sun, 19 May 2013 01:18
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grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006 Location: France |
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Actually, you can change a lot of NCTH parameters in NCTHconstants.ini (or something like that, i don't have the files here), including any stat weight on the NCTH mechanisms.
IMHO, DEX is very important for a shooter, you may know how to shoot, but if your arms shake like hell you won't hit anything past a few meters. This wasn't taken into consideration in OCTH very well. NCTH puts incentive on DEX where it is relevant (read the file it's documented), but, yes, maybe too much? It's up to the player to ajust it if he feels so.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320059]
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Sun, 19 May 2013 01:48
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wsmithjr2013 |
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Messages:50
Registered:March 2013 Location: New Jersey |
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TangoAnecdotally I find dexterity to be a huge influence in NCTH. So much so that a low marksmanship merc with High 90+ dexterity cam be a much better shooter than a high mark low dex merc.
Indeed, that would be supported by my observations. Razor has a lousy MRK but even so hits a lot more than Hitman. Not a lot, mind you, but still better than Hitman.
Grim-Hitman has a VERY low DEX (40 is really bad). DEX has a good weight in NCTH, maybe he misses a lot because of that. How is the aperture size with full aim when you shoot? Compared to Stephen and his P99?
Have to get another battle to check. For Hitman, the circle was relatively small compared to not aiming, but it certainly wasn't the cross. So, perhaps part of the issue is my perception that the smaller circle is probably much better odds than it actually is. Is there any way to see the actual chance of a hit? Didn't see a hotkey on the list for that.
CapJackIf he has lower strength give him a 9mm auto weapon or something more controllable with less recoil. NCTH has been designed such that auto weapons are much more important and it generally takes many more bullets to finish a battle.
This comment, along with another about the Thompson being a bad weapon was not something that is readily apparent to me. I know there's a ton of stats about recoil and all, and I've looked at those, but I wasn't thinking they applied with single shots, only auto fire. So, when I look at one weapon with Acc 30/Rng 20 vs one with Acc 6/Rng 12, the one that seems obviously better to me apparently is not. And it's not like I'm even comparing total damage output. The Thompson costs much more to fire, so I'd expect mercs using pistols to do more damage over time using only single shots simply because they can get in many more shots. What I wouldn't expect is the hit percentage to be so much higher with the pistols.
That said, I didn't realize DEX was so important to hitting. Might bump down a tad to reduce my level of frustration. I do have a bunch more weapons now so I'll just have to get some of them over to Hitman and see if it helps any. It also helps to have a bit more insight into NCTH.
Anyway, I appreciate all the comments. Unfortunately, I'm out of town for the next couple of weeks and won't be able to play the game, but I'm sure Deidranna will hang around and wait for my return.
Thanks.
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Corporal
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320061]
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Sun, 19 May 2013 03:33
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grim |
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Messages:344
Registered:July 2006 Location: France |
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Well, weapon "accuracy" isn't very important at short range. Its related to the bullet accuracy from the virtual aimed point of the gun. In fact, a low accuracy can, with luck, compensate a bad shot from the merc. And by the way, the "accuracy" isn't shown on the NCTH indicator, you only see the aperture size if i understood well.
Range value doesn't work like in OCTH AT ALL. It only limits the distance at witch you can shoot. So a pistol with 12 range can shoot at 12 tiles away effectively, and the thompson at 20. Their accuracy below those distances aren't modified. The bullet drops after that range, that's all.
NCTH isn't a % to hit, so you can't show it. The bullet has a chance to deviate in the whole cone in from of your merc, whose section is the aperture shown on the reticule. (i don't know if i'm clear here, have a look at Headrock's explanations for better understanding!). If the aperture size is larger than the body part you are shooting, there is quite some chance you will miss it. The larger the aperture, the more (exponential) you will miss.
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Master Sergeant
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328386]
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Wed, 20 November 2013 21:51
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largon |
Messages:1
Registered:June 2008 Location: Finland |
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NCTH is a total mess in my opinion.
Eg. say you have a lone enemy about 10 squares away. MRK@85. You have an AR equipped with say, no attachments at all. You go about and shoot the bugger. Most certainly you will miss.
Try again.
And again.
Huge majority will miss.
Full aim points, no matter.
Mm-kay...
You grab your sidearm.
Oh look, it's a .38 special!
You run to few squares distance and blast the bugger apart with one shot to the forehead.
*WTF moment*
Sniper scopes seem useless.
M21 with 7x/10x scope and a goddam bipod -> shooter (MRK, DEX, STR, WIS ~85) prone and full aim points -> aperture is 3 times wider than enemy profile some 30-40 squares away.
No hit. No reason to even try.
Just wait for the perp to close in and pepper it with a random SMG, pistols w/e...
I wonder, if the author of NCTH has personal experience with firing guns at all...
Me? Basic finnish constript training with live round combat simulation in actual terrain, not just on range. RK62 (=M76 in the game). Basically I was shooting snapshots while moving at volleyball sized balloons some little less than 10m away. Couple dozen balls and few survived.
And I'm not even a good shot compared to average fellow finnish constript.
NCTH is madness.
[Updated on: Wed, 20 November 2013 21:52] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Civilian
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333940]
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Sun, 29 June 2014 17:52
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Oberst_Klink |
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Messages:13
Registered:June 2014 Location: Germany |
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Hello,
I have another Question, not really on Topic, but I hope it
[Updated on: Sun, 29 June 2014 17:53] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333941]
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Sun, 29 June 2014 17:57
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M16AMachinegun |
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Messages:304
Registered:September 2013 |
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Place cleaning kit in your merc's inventory
Command: "CTRL" and Period "."
Select "Clean Guns"
[Updated on: Tue, 03 March 2015 04:06] Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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