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| Firearms & the Art/Science of Shooting[message #331330]
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Mon, 17 March 2014 02:56 
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 Anthropoid |
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Messages:145
Registered:February 2014 |
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I have the impression that quite a few of you guys have a background in military, law enforcement or other basis for knowledge and experience with firearms and shooting. I will soon be moving back to Georgia and intend to get into target shooting and keeping a handgun at home for protection.
I have a number of questions about stuff that I'd imagine some of you guys might have insights on, and maybe just a general thread for discussing firearms and shooting would be interesting?
My first queston:
1. What is "accuracy" really? I see lots of talk about the different accuracy of firearms, but I'm not entirely sure what people mean by that, nor what the accuracy numbers in the game really represent. Is "accuracy:"
(a) if you vice a firearm into a table and use a laser or other means to point it directly at a target, then fire it repeatedly (bolted so that it is impossible for it to move), the amount of variance in where bullets actually hit at any given distance?
or,
(b) roughly the same measurement except done with a human shooter?
If b is the answer, then how do you account for things like human skill level, fatigue, what they ate for breakfast, etc.?
If b is the answer, then I would imagine that the accuracy of any given firearm would actually vary quite a bit between different shooters. For example, even with marksmanship held constant, a huge man with gigantic paws would (I would think) find it more difficult to be accurate with a compact pistol than say a petite woman. Conversely, a really strong person, particularl arm and hand strength as well as shoulder strength, would presumably find a heavy gun with a lot of recoil to be less difficult to be accurate with than a small person.
Some other questions:
(2) The HK USP: is this gun actually overpriced relative to its merits?
(3) PS90, Tavor, or Mini-14, if I just want something fun to plink with, which is cost-effective and also could be useful in the event of home defense, which one?
(4) Is a .38 S&W really all you need for home-defense / conceal carry? Or rather, is it an archaic abomination, and one would have to be crazy to pick it over say a Glock?
Bit more background on me and why I'm starting the thread, my posting of similar questions in a thread at another regular bbs haunt of mine, where there are quite a few vets. There is a good 8 or 10 pages where half-dozen guys chime in on various topics stemming from this initial post and it gives an idea of the sort of discussion that I'd imagine would be quite interesting to have with this community.
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"Anthropoid"So, looks like I should be back to Atlanta in a few months, and hopefully will find me a new job. When I do I want to get into shooting: join a gun club, and procure a few weapons, maybe eventually even take some of those tactical classes. I'd be very curious to hear you guys think about that in general. My motivation is that, I have done a little bit of shooting years ago and really enjoyed it. I used to own a Norinco 9mm tokarev knockoff (given my my father in law to 'protect his daughter') and have fired a glock 9mm, shotguns, and a couple rifles (many, many years ago).
I found the art of shooting, and caring for the firearm to be strangely meditative and pleasurable.
So I'm thinking I'd like to at least have: 1. pistol; 2. rifle; 3. shotgun, all of which ideally are a model that is useful for home defense.
For the pistol, I'm leaning toward HK USP or Glock.
For the rifle, I'm leaning towards either Tavor or PS90. Long-term maybe also get a bolt action type.
For shotgun, I have no idea, and actually the shotgun is the thing I'm least interested in target shooting with, though it might actually be the cheapest gun to start with, and also potentially quite useful for home defense. I understand that skeet shooting guns are very different than hunting guns?
Obviously, what I'll want to do is to try out different guns before I buy one (via whatever groups I join down in Atlanta) but I'm just thinking slowly and far in advance about what to think about as possibilities.
So three specific questions:
1. The HK USP vs say a Glock 17? Any thoughts or experiences of comparison?
2. The myriad Glock options: what do you guys think about this "high pressure rounds 'suck'" claim? I hear some people claim that rounds like the .40 S&W are simply too much power for the size of the casing and the pistol, leading to the weapon being (a) less easy to use in rapid fashion and (b) also leading to faster wear.
Would this apply also to the .40, .357 and .45 versions of the Glock? Or is that whole line of argument just BS in your opinion(s)?
3. Tavor vs. PS90? Any thoughts or points of comparison?
Also in this post a couple of pages later, I clarify what my interests are and some of these guys start to provide some greater detail. It is funny, the one Austrian army dude (Reinald) of course advises Glock, bless his heart 
The 50 to 60 year old ex-American soldiers (Doggie and Old Eagle) advise:
"doggie"pistol: M-1911 .45 Used by the U.S. armed forces for more than a hundred years for a reason.
Rifle: M-1903 Springfield. classic rifle that will appreciate in value.
Shotgun: Remington 870 all the shotgun you will ever need at a reasonable price.
I prefer classic weapons to the new fangled yuppie shit
Immediately after that post, the discussion gets a bit more active and the various options for handgun (Sig, Glock, Ruger, etc.) start to get their religious advocates 
Some fun guys who hang at that forum and that thread is a pretty interesting exchange of view points.
So that is probably way more than enough for a first post to get a thread like this going . . . if it ever gets going that is.
[Updated on: Mon, 17 March 2014 06:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Firearms & the Art/Science of Shooting[message #331738]
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Sun, 13 April 2014 23:10 
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| Kaerar |
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Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D |
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Usually accuracy is actually (b) in your example so it does indeed differ wildly depending on the shooter and his brunch.
Also with guns everyone has their favourites, I personally love some old WW2 stuff, yet at the same time things like the H&K G11 are just too cool to forget.
However if it came to a few guns from personal liking, I would love to get the chance to try out a good AK47/AKM or other good quality 7.62x39 AK variant. A friend of mine owns an SVD Dragunov and swears it's his best Sniper rifle, lucky it was on my list too. Would love to fire a Barrett M98B, though I have a feeling it's going to be a little underwhelming. I have a massive soft spot for M14's and Mosin Nagant 91/30 which is still an awesome rifle, not to mention my liking of certain handguns like an M1911 with a match grip and barrel, CZ75, FN FiveSeveN, etc...
However it's unlikely I'll ever get to test them as I tend to live in countries which are totally terrified of their population so instead they disarm them and treat them like criminals...
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| Re: Firearms & the Art/Science of Shooting[message #331992]
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Tue, 29 April 2014 18:54
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| veedotja2 |
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Messages:85
Registered:April 2012
Location: New York |
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1.An accurate firearm means if you miss it's your fault, and not the guns fault.
You have to have experience with a range of guns, but practical accuracy runs the gamut from a few yards (2" barrel revolver) to hundreds of yards (scoped rifle).
You need to keep up your end of the bargain, and that requires mastering recoil for the gun you are shooting. In every case a new shooter has trouble shooting up to the level of his or her firearm.
2. People like to debate the merit of so and so gun with respect to another. The USP is a fine duty pistol. So is a .38 revolver. Glocks are fine. You need to invest time to master the controls of a pistol. A lot of time, so you can do it under stress.
That is the real difference between the different pistols, the firing action (DA/SA), the presence of a safety, and so on.
Caliber, provided it is sufficient (.38/9mm and up), really isn't relevant unless you intend to go into battle with the pistol, which you are not. All pistols pale in comparison to a rifle in power, so go with what you can shoot accurately and are comfortable manipulating under a worse case scenario, like in the dark while tired. Understand if given the time you should secure a rifle or shotgun for proper self-defense.
If you are inexperienced and really require a handgun just go with a revolver, .38 Special is fine, with sights you can see and PRACTICE a lot. Don't get a tiny revolver (like a Smith J-Frame) so recoil won't be an issue. You won't have to fumble with it and the stress won't cause you accidentally discharge it.
If you need more than 6 rounds to end a confrontation go back to video games, you shouldn't be shooting at people. It's harsh but true.
3. Plinking begs for a .22 LR. Cheap, quiet, and powerful enough to put holes in coins, cans and squirrels. Outdoors you barely need hearing protection. Get the Ruger 10/22 and be done with it.
4. You are going to be in Atlanta? Georgia has places to shoot, you have no excuse not to be practicing often.
I was in the military and have shot anything and everything.
I own a 12 gauge pump shotgun, centerfire lever rifle, .22 LR rifle, a 1911, and a revolver.
I think all my bases are covered.
I can shoot deer, doves, targets, skeet, and bad guys. If SHTF I grab a revolver.
There are a lot of armchair generals out there. The guys at the gun store are even worse sources of bullshit.
Your requirements are not the same as the military guys or cops or salesman. You want to be armed, have fun, and learn about guns so just go and do a lot of shooting, a lot of practicing, and remember that your first gun probably won't be your last. In Atlanta you can buy and sell your guns. You aren't committed to one choice for the rest of your life!
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Firearms & the Art/Science of Shooting[message #332440]
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Mon, 12 May 2014 05:07
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| M16AMachinegun |
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Messages:304
Registered:September 2013 |
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1) A weapon's accuracy is its ability to put rounds through a small, downward-curving (due to gravity) cone. The smaller this cone is, the better. This cone is measured as "MOA," or Minute of Angle. I dont' feel like looking it up but I believe it's about one inch diameter (might be radius) at a distance of 100 yards.
A shooter's accuracy is his ability to shoot a weapon at any particular target. The further his rounds go from his intended target, the less accurate he is.
A shooter's precision is his ability to shoot repeatedly at a target and is measured by his 'grouping', i.e. how close his rounds are together. This is entirely separate from a shooter's accuracy, but are frequently compared to each other (since obviously getting rounds close to a target is as important as doing so repeatedly). Pictures exist demonstrating this dichotomy.
2) Import laws for USA means that the HK USP is a lot more expensive to bring over here than other weapons (most of which have plants in the USA). I believe H&K recently bought a plant in the USA, so prices should be getting better.
I recently saw a 4chan thread (yeah, yeah, 4chan...) with europeans reporting that certain weapons (such as SIG pistols) are significantly more expensive in their home country vs the HK USP line. Again, due to import laws or lack-there-of.
3) Don't buy a PS90. it's not cost-effective, ammo and replacement parts are expensive, and the extra barrel length sticking out the front is going to get you into trouble with you maneuvering it through your house.
Tavors are expensive but at least they shoot 5.56 and take AR mags.
Mini-14 have expensive (and rare) magazines and are rather long.
Assuming you're an American I recommend either an AK variant or a civilian AR-15, loaded up with frangible home-defense ammunition. Note that this is only for a rifle suggestion.
If you're only talking home-defense, I'd recommend an auto-loading handgun in 9x19mm/.40s&w/.45acp (since they're all common). Get a full size pistol (I wont tell you which one to buy, it's all about how it feels in your hands + if you can easily manipulate its controls) and practice with it at a range. You need to be able to shoot fast and accurately with it if you really are serious about taking your life into your own hands. Gunfighting is a big deal.
4) .38spc is decent for concealed carry, but what matters more is the gun itself. Revolvers are rather bulky by design. Depending very heavily on your build and clothing choice, the firearm you want to pick will change very drastically and will likely be very different than the home-defense pistol i described above. You also need to invest in a holster that'll be comfortable to wear.
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Master Sergeant
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He is exactly the type of shooter we need to represent "gun culture" in the U.S., as opposed to some of the maniacs (Alex Jones) or semi-incompetents (James Yeager).
Good info!