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icon13.gif  JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365421] Sun, 16 July 2023 07:38 Go to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
Messages:7
Registered:January 2021
Looks nice, but dumb as a box of rocks and has no personality or soul.

I wanted to be proved wrong about this one, that I was just an old grognard that hates new games and lives in the past. But mechanically, JA3 is utterly vapid and I was vindicated in my suspicions.

Sir-Tech Canada put so much love and effort into JA2, that much is clear. Autistic detail, some might say, but it was that detail that made the game something we still play today.

JA3 is a shell of a JA game.

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365434 is a reply to message #365421] Sun, 16 July 2023 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skott Karlsson is currently offline Skott Karlsson

 
Messages:79
Registered:May 2001
Location: Oldsmar, FL. USA
I'm not sure even if Sir-Tech was to reform with all its entire original team and make a sequel that we the players would be happy. Times have changed. Lots of new tech available and with it new ideas. Not sure the original team would make the game we all want and expect. Just saying. Not sure even they could do it.

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Corporal
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365437 is a reply to message #365434] Sun, 16 July 2023 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
Messages:7
Registered:January 2021
I think you're probably right. We've been spoiled by 20+ years of modding, but it does show that JA2 was a rare, rare game, one that people wanted to put that much effort into perfecting.

I don't think JA3 is terrible, it's not bad, but it's just another bloody FiraXCOM clone as far as I'm concerned, and I'm so sick of that in tactics games now. It wasn't even that good in the very first Firaxis XCOM, and by now it's well and truly run its course.

Also it's just low effort compared to JA2.

Consider the very first mission in JA2, where the chopper drops you off in the first location in Arulco and you have to find your contact.

You're combat dropped into the middle of a battle, pretty much. You have just enough time to get behind some sandbags and scout a bit, and then the enemy is on you. The map is large, you have dozens of ways to approach the battle ahead of you. There are a good few enemies and they're positioned in different places each time you play. There are a dozen or more buildings for you to fight in and around, and they're all individually drawn and modelled.

After the battle, you need to search the area for clues, and figure out how to find your contact. You spend some time looting the bombed out shelters, and trying to figure out where to go next.

You have to talk to characters after the battle, say the right stuff, and they'll lead you to another area where you have to have a longish conversation with a bunch of rebels, meet people, have dialogue options and decide whether to take on new staff or not. You end up in a bunker underground talking with some guerillas, and it almost goes wrong because they're rough around the edges and you're a bunch of dumb mercs. There's not one, but two characters here you can recruit.

After this, you've got an open-ended campaign ahead of you. Do you trek east, facing constant patrols to get to a smaller but easier to hold mine, or go west, clear out a larger town and take the better value mine there? Of course, that triggers a huge counter-attack that you need to be ready for...

The options you face after that first battle are endless: it's a true open-world sandbox.


Now look at the opening to JA3.

You walk through the same bit of territory to the first three enemies, fought out in a tiny clearing. Then you go to a house and you have a four paragraph info-dump conversation with someone, with no meaningful dialogue options at all, and then you automatically move on rails onto the next location, for another battle you'll have to play in exactly the same way each time you play it.


"Streamlining" means ripping the soul out of games, and I hate it.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 July 2023 21:32]

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365438 is a reply to message #365437] Sun, 16 July 2023 21:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gopan is currently offline Gopan

 
Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway
Aye, i don't like that kind of mechanics either, not in XCOM 2 or in Wasteland 2 and i finished it twice. But JA's never had that grid. You are restricted only by your action points and whether you are in cover or not. Also, the maps in JA2 at least, seem to be bigger than they are in JA3, giving you more room to move around in a fight. I didn't play JA3 yet but i've read Shanga's observations, concerning weapons and merchants and..well....it would appear that they didn't want to go through too much work but rather keep it simple, same as most of the other JA failed tries. Not everyone likes the "living off the land" forever, it's fun for a while but not for the duration of the whole game.


Nipson anomimata mi monan opsin

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Master Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365441 is a reply to message #365438] Sun, 16 July 2023 21:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Bimbo of JA is a nice analogy. I would say that this game is more like a crappy XCOM 2 total conversion mod with superficial and/or misunderstood JA elements. Don't know, perhaps people who've never played JA2 might enjoy that, but it's most definitely not a worthy JA2 successor for me. Not to mention if I wanted to make that worthy successor at this point, I would've taken 1.13 as a reference, not vanilla JA2.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 July 2023 21:40]

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Private 1st Class
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365443 is a reply to message #365441] Sun, 16 July 2023 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
manimal is currently offline manimal
Messages:4
Registered:July 2023
Location: Argentina / third world
I mean, nothing holds a candle the titan that's 1.13, but this new installment did break the curse of "JA2, but 3D" that all spiritual successors couldn't get away from. It's serviceable enough for the new generation to sink their teeth in, but i have to say, the writing in this one it's pretty watered down although there's some funny quips here and there.

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Civilian
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365444 is a reply to message #365443] Sun, 16 July 2023 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
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I found the voice acting grated. I know the original game was hammy but they went all in on that, stupid accents and all. I feel JA3 they kind of held themselves back and the writing is really bad, I found the jokes cringe-inducing rather than funny, with a few exceptions.

I agree, it's an alright tactics game but it's not a candle even on vanilla JA2, never mind v1.13.

If I was the lead developer on a JA game I'd take v1.13 as the baseline for quality: even if you can't hope to get that amount of content in, you have to try, at least, to capture the depth of gameplay that JA2 had. And that means all that stuff that people want "streamlined out for modern audiences", because it turns out that was the stuff that gave the game its pull.

Someone was discussing how in the original UFO/Xcom game, the "Enemy Turn" screen, where you heard footsteps, gunshots, screams and so on, was superb for building tension, far more than anything FiraXCOM managed. XPiratez is an example of a UFO mod that has broken the mould with what we can do with that old engine, it's certainly up there with v1.13 and Caster of Magic (for Master of Magic) in terms of astounding mods that understood the core gameplay that made the originals so good in the first place. That's the key difference between what modders can do, and what a remaster/remake/sequel will generally deliver: remade for the modern audience.

Sigh.

Again, nobody was expecting v1.13 again, or JA2 again. But from what I played of JA3 so far, it feels very light on effort compared to those old games, and has cut out or "streamlined" much of the exploration and CRPG elements that made them so fun in the first place.

JA3 is clearly very moddable, but I'm wondering whether the core gameplay is there for people to be bothered enough to do so?

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Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365448 is a reply to message #365444] Mon, 17 July 2023 02:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Skott Karlsson is currently offline Skott Karlsson

 
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Location: Oldsmar, FL. USA
Has anyone heard what the budget was for JA3? Curious how much they put into it. I know a lot but just curious anyway.

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Corporal
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365477 is a reply to message #365448] Wed, 19 July 2023 02:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
The more I learn about this game the more I hate it. It's as if the dev team didn't know Jagged Alliance well enough, so they went and seek inspiration in other dumbed-down games. Endless (i.e. unlimited) knifes? What? And what the fuck is up with those retarded perks? Mr Fixit? Is this fucking Fallout!? A perk that reveals all enemies? Huh? Compare this piece of trash to all the effort has been put into 1.13 in order to make JA2 more "realistic". What a joke of a game. From now on I'm gonna pretend it never existed as a JA2 sequel, cause I really don't wanna keep ranting about it for days.

Edit: I've just realized the game had "essential" (i.e. unkillable) characters. You may shoot them in the head as much as you'd like, after falling unconscious for a few seconds, they get up as if nothing has happened and go about their business as usual. Fuck, I would've never imagined that a JA game would have Bethesda level stupidity.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 03:40]

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Private 1st Class
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365481 is a reply to message #365477] Wed, 19 July 2023 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Melliores is currently offline Melliores

 
Messages:15
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Let me share my thoughts as someone who has played JA1 (since 1995), JA2 (since 2000) and now 50 hours of JA3.

You definitely have to live of the land, even more so than compared to JA2 1.13. The lack of big merchants makes it really hard to find some specific weapons and ammo for them. Good armour is also difficult to procure. You can craft ammo and explosives but it requires some items that are also hard to find. The lack of proper traders means also that you can make very, very little money from selling weapons and equipment, which makes mines, diamonds and other valuables sought after. So you need to be careful with your resources and conserve ammo when you can.

There are no unlimited knives per se. Blood (the merc) has a unique talent that allows him to throw knives while moving, as a special skill. The skill is not spammable, I think you have to make 2-3 kills with Blood to reactivate it again. This can be roleplayed as Blood recovering his knives.

The perks are a nice addition, as you can specialize your mercs to a certain degree with them. They are also dependent on your attributes, so in order to be able to make viable path for a sniper for example you will need to raise your Agility and Dexterity quite a bit. It is not simply just picking a perk and you are done - it does require some planning, training and using your mercs so they can raise their attributes. This makes you even more attached to them and their weak and strong sides.

The merc Livewire has a talent (unique to each of the mercs) that all enemies in a sector are revealed only if you have Intel on that sector. She is the only one that has this talent from a roster of about 45 to 50 mercs and hireable NPCs.

Intel is a new mechanic that gives you key landmarks (including secret stashes, minefield, machinegun nests and so on) on the overhead map of the sector. It works quite nice actually - instead of a minimap you zoom out a bit and can check different landmarks.


The trick about Intel is that you can not guarantee that you will have it - you either obtain it via exploring sectors (talking to people, checking/hacking devices, reading info) or have to use the Scout operation on the strategic view. The Scout operation though heavily depends on the Wisdom attribute of the mercs sent to do it - the better it is, the more sectors you will be able to scout. However scouting takes usually a day or two, so in practice you are actually paying money (from the salaries of your mercs) to do it. It is a balancing act whether you want to rush into a sector with no prior information or take your time and lose some money.

Some highlights of JA3 that actually make it a really good proposal as a Jagged Alliance game:
- you can play coop, much like you could in JA Deadly games.
- multiple squads in the same sector actually are really easy and enjoyable to play with.
- there will be a campaign and map editor that will allow almost anyone to create a custom campaign if they have the skills and motivation. The game does support big maps - the mine in sector A2 (Diamond Red) is actually huge and has some nice elevation to it.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 21:44]

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365482 is a reply to message #365481] Wed, 19 July 2023 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
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I was kinda of blown away with how HUGE some of the maps are. So was my GPU but that's another issue. Level design is on par if not better than Wasteland 3. And the variety is jaw dropping. RPG wise is a very nice game and if you play it like a tactical RPG then you will find that the characters are unique and perks make sense. There are a lot of things to get annoyed by but also many to enjoy.

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Captain
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365485 is a reply to message #365477] Wed, 19 July 2023 21:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadooow is currently offline Shadooow

 
Messages:109
Registered:April 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Brms08 wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 01:19
The more I learn about this game the more I hate it.
I stopped playing after 10 minutes (3rd map).

I don't hate the game yet, but playing it just didn't make me entertained. During that short time I didn't see anything where I would say "this is awesome", but I found plenty of thing I disliked.

1. Lack of IMP portraits. There are just 3 portraits for each gender lol?
2. New portraits of of mercs. I don't think I like any of them. Barry looks like Darius from LoL, Igor looks like 18year old boat captain wannabe. At best I can tolerate some like MD.
3. New mercs voices and one-liners. This is just horrible. I could tolerate the fact that obviously they can't sound the same, but the one-liners that they are endlessly spamming are annoying and mainly embarrassing. It is cringe as hell. Who are they aiming at with this comedy or parody style?
4. Graphic/full 3D terrain in tactical mode. Sure the graphic looks very modernish and all, but it prevents player to quickly see and determine distance, possible routes and line of sight. Likewise it is great there is a multiple level of height in area, but I legit couldn't tell - and it doesn't seem to affect much either.
5. Inventory. Obviously expecting a LBE mechanics would be too much, but why the hell is inwentory fullscreen?
6. 25 AP system. Ugh why just 25 AP? It feels so outdated.
7. Obstacles not working as I expected them to work. It seems that the game uses quantum physics - mercs are both hiding behind obstacle and peeping out of it at the same time. Or else I can't explain why I was hit directly into torso while hiding behind the rock in the very first combat by opponent straight opposite of me.
8. Enemies getting a prepare round and immediatelly hiding behind obstacles. This is so annoying and is main reason I quit the game in third map where there were around 10 enemies. Not fun when they don't move forward.


Maybe I am just old, but then I checked steam about possible replacement for JA3 and saw Xenonauts 2. I liked the screenshots so I bought it, and depite it is not a JA2 style game, I like the tactical combats there much much more (it looks like 100AP based). Maybe even more than JA2. That is what I was hoping for JA3 to bring, but it probably aims at different audience than the loyal JA2 base who was still at least ocassionally playing JA2 (with various mods) even to this day.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 21:53]

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Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365486 is a reply to message #365482] Wed, 19 July 2023 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Makes me wonder if the devs used XCom 2 engine to build this game, not only it looks exactly like it but also most of this game's mechanics seem like are a direct ripoff of XCom 2, including the so called "perks", which make the game utterly unrealistic because of their very specific nature, unlike the traits in JA. Then again you wouldn't necessarily expect a stupid sci-fi game to be realistic, however in Jagged Alliance you do. Strength based backpack space is also one of the worst offenders in terms of dumbing-down. JA2 already had a near perfect encumbrance system, why ruin it? Cause you're too lazy to write code to track item weight in the game? Yes, unlike JA2, items have no weight in this game (just like XCom 2), let alone "volume" that indicates inventory space covered in backpack as in 1.13. I'm also surprised that no one has even noticed or talked about the lack of fucking magazines. WTF is squad inventory (squad supplies) anyway, who carries it, how do the mercs access it in the middle of a battle and use the boxed ammo to reload their weapon? How does it make any sense? This game is nothing but an XCom 2 mod pretends to be the JA2 sequel, it's literally JA for dummies. There's no way a JA2 fan, especially someone who appreciates 1.13 additions, can appreciate this game as a JA2 sequel, absolutely no fucking way.

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Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365488 is a reply to message #365485] Wed, 19 July 2023 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Shadooow wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 21:18

1. Lack of IMP portraits. There are just 3 portraits for each gender lol?
2. New portraits of of mercs. I don't think I like any of them. Barry looks like Darius from LoL, Igor looks like 18year old boat captain wannabe. At best I can tolerate some like MD.
3. New mercs voices and one-liners. This is just horrible. I could tolerate the fact that obviously they can't sound the same, but the one-liners that they are endlessly spamming are annoying and mainly embarrassing. It is cringe as hell. Who are they aiming at with this comedy or parody style?
The devs probably didn't really want you to create the IMP character, they most likely wanted you to form your squad entirely from their new "parody" characters instead, and experience the game with their stupid humor. I'm sure you've noticed the difference in voice acting and the lines for the IMP character. Feels way too tame, if not dull and out of place compared to other mercs. Which is probably why they immediately show you the message in the beginning of the game claiming that JA were 80's parody and had pop culture references and shit. Which is also why the IMP character creation is a massive downgrade.

Completely agree on 2 and 3.

Barry sounds like Tony, perhaps the same voice actor?

Shadooow wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 21:18
8. Enemies getting a prepare round and immediatelly hiding behind obstacles. This is so annoying and is main reason I quit the game in third map where there were around 10 enemies. Not fun when they don't move forward.
Weirdly enough, enemies are given the initiative to react to the opponent, whereas your squad doesn't have it at all. In other words, when the enemy notices you, they immediately go into turn-based mode, your mercs however can't do the same, unlike JA2. In JA2, whoever notices the opponent first has the initiative to go into turn-based mode and attack. You also lack the ability to go into turn-based mode at will, which is a major issue in positioning and employing any tactics in a team-based tactical game.



[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 22:50]

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Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365489 is a reply to message #365486] Wed, 19 July 2023 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Melliores is currently offline Melliores

 
Messages:15
Registered:February 2012
Jagged Alliance 3 has very little in common with the new Xcom games.

Some factual comparisons :

- Xcom has 2 actions per turn and that is it. JA3 keeps the AP system and simply adds a free movement action that is dependent on your agility. The AP system can not be directly manipulated via perks - you can lower the cost of some actions (via weapon mods) or receive up to 4 extra AP per turn when achieving something (a kill usually). But you do not get a direct refund of an action, like in Xcom 2.
- The perks in Xcom only require you to be of a certain level and spend XP points. In JA3 you have clear attribute requirements (bronze level perks require 70 in the attribute, silver level require 80 and gold level require 90). Thus, you do not only require a perk point, you need to train your merc to the required attribute threshold to be able to select perks from that level. Also each new level requires a certain number of perks already taken within that attribute path - silver requires one perk, gold level requires 3 perks previously taken. This makes both the perks and builds personalized and involving forethought. Also respec is not a thing in JA3, unlike Xcom 2.
- Xcom 2 features no dynamic inventory whatsoever. JA3 has a compromise of sorts to limit to a minimum the micromanagement and hours spent on dressing your soldiers like dolls with the latest LBE and whatnot. I know that some people immensely enjoy this micromanagement part of JA2 1.13 but this was not one of the strengths of JA2 - micromanagement was even made worse with the drop all option as you had no way to sort through 10+ pages of loot in the sector inventory. JA3 inventory is not perfect - the shared squad stash is a good addition, however it can use a few filters. Also the characters can benefit from a few more equipment slots - for example, thrown weapon slot, specialist equipment (gas mask, night vision googles etc) and more.
- Magazines. There is no such thing as magazines in the code of JA2. JA2 in my experience only counted bullets - once you combine two or more magazines, they will disappear. Even worse, you could load the bullets into a machine gun, the 30-round magazines would be removed and then you could unload the machine gun magazine box for a 100+ new magazine created out of thin air. At times this got silly, as you would micromanage your inventory to create machinegun boxes. And then load even pistols from that very same machinegun magazine.

JA3 has very little in common with the new Xcom games - only the cover shields that are shown for convenience, as well as the purely interface additions of displaying in blue and gray the borders of your movements, as well as visibility lines to your targets. The latter can actually be toggled off in the options menu if you prefer to not know whether on a given tile you will have a visibility of a certain enemy. The action point economy, targetable body parts, armour, movement, bullet trajectory and more are pure JA concepts.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 22:56]

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365490 is a reply to message #365489] Wed, 19 July 2023 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Melliores wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 22:49
Jagged Alliance 3 has very little in common with the new Xcom games.
LOL. Yeah right, if you only concentrate on how they differ.

Melliores wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 22:49


- Magazines. There is no such thing as magazines in the code of JA2. JA2 in my experience only counted bullets - once you combine two or more magazines, they will disappear. Even worse, you could load the bullets into a machine gun, the 30-round magazines would be removed and then you could unload the machine gun magazine box for a 100+ new magazine created out of thin air. At times this got silly, as you would micromanage your inventory to create machinegun boxes. And then load even pistols from that very same machinegun magazine.

You've got to be joking. There IS such a thing called magazines and they can be merged. They are made of bullets naturally, duh, and bullets can be used on any weapon of the same caliber. How the code handled magazines in the original JA2 code is irrelevant. They are most definitely a thing in the game, not to mention a very necessary part of any military tactics game.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2023 23:09]

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Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365491 is a reply to message #365490] Wed, 19 July 2023 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Melliores is currently offline Melliores

 
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@Brms08

I have a couple of hundreds of hours in Xcom 2, both the base game and modded. Same goes for modded JA2.

JA3 has very little in common with Xcom2. Including the maps - when you get to experience the bigger maps, some of them are even larger than the extended maps for JA2 1.13.

Have you played JA3 or only watched videos of it?

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365492 is a reply to message #365491] Wed, 19 July 2023 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Melliores wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 22:58
@Brms08

I have a couple of hundreds of hours in Xcom 2, both the base game and modded. Same goes for modded JA2.
I have put more than two decades into JA2 pal.

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Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365500 is a reply to message #365421] Thu, 20 July 2023 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
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The acid test for me was "Does this game make me want to play JA2 instead?"

The answer was "yes" and I got to that point after a hour of playing.

I'm glad people are enjoying it, the game is clearly a success judging by the statistics on Steam, and I'm pleased for the developers.

But it's not for me, I don't think. I might come back once the game has been modded, to see if they can add in the tactical/roleplaying nuance that I loved in JA2, but right now it ain't there.

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365501 is a reply to message #365500] Thu, 20 July 2023 08:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
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And if there's one trope that kills a video game for me, it's f'ing "Crafting" .

If it's not Minecraft or Cataclysm: DDA, Crafting can get in the sea.

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365507 is a reply to message #365489] Thu, 20 July 2023 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadooow is currently offline Shadooow

 
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Melliores wrote on Wed, 19 July 2023 21:49
I know that some people immensely enjoy this micromanagement part of JA2 1.13 but this was not one of the strengths of JA2 - micromanagement was even made worse with the drop all option as you had no way to sort through 10+ pages of loot in the sector inventory.
Micromanagment was always part of JA2. But part that you could completely ignore, if you wished so.

In base JA2 you are still micromanaging the inventory. Sure it has no specific pockets, but you still want to pack your merc with as much stuff and not overdo it and encumber him. You still want to micromanage the loot in sector inventory, load it to weak mercs from M.E.R.C. and send them fully packed to Tony to sell it.

1.13 mod takes this to another level, but again - you are not forced to do it. Even if you choose to not use old inventory system which is still possible (and I know noone who would ever use it - but ok lets say that "some" peoples who dislike LBE exists and that is why they play straciatella), you could easily completely ignore all the various LBE and keep the basic and universal LBE gear on all of them. You were difinitelly not forced to use the dynamic LBE system (MOLLE) either. It was simply an option for those who liked it and wanted to dress their mercs.

Likewise drop-all, this option is not vanilla and is totally optional. Nobody forces you to play with this option and then micromanagment the loot for days. I never played with this - I prefer super slow weapon progression and money constraints and I am not into realism - JA2 was still an arcade game and that is why I liked it.

JA3 inventory is serious dumbing-down that is also unrealistic. While I say the game was arcade, some level of realism was there - bullets, extra magazines, limited resources, gun properties. If not, then there wouldn't be some many realism-freaks who love to play JA2 with drop all, food/drink system, diseases and even urine system lol. The way JA3 implemented this doesn't cater to any of the two "camps".

So far what I saw and what I hear - they omitted the base features/functionalities of JA2 and changed the whole game feel to parody (where I didn't have a slightest inkling of JA2 being that .-as they now claim it to be). The only thing for why this can even be called a Jagged Alliance is that they reused the merc names.

JA3 might be a good game, but I don't see how it is a sequel to JA2.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2023 17:11]

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Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365508 is a reply to message #365507] Thu, 20 July 2023 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mravac Kid is currently offline Mravac Kid

 
Messages:68
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Location: Opatija, Croatia
Seems to me people wanted an officialized JA2 1.13, and this game is obviously not it. But if you look at it as a separate game, it's by far the best post-Sirtech sequel, so far the only thing that really grates me is the worst feature of XCOM they imported, namely the "enemies get a free turn to hide".


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Corporal
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365510 is a reply to message #365508] Thu, 20 July 2023 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Melliores is currently offline Melliores

 
Messages:15
Registered:February 2012
@ Shadooow

The JA2 1.13 mod is modular and you can switch on and off options. However the mod was still tailored for a certain group of players. Hence the sentence you quoted - there are quite a few JA2 1.13 players who play it for the added micromanagement and huge choice of gear. The interface (the one from the base game) was clearly not intended to handle such level of micromanagement.

We had no sort functions in the sector inventory, the only added option was a hotkey combination to sell all. Same for the various magazines and ammo - a Merge all button would have helped immensely.

The micromanagement in the base game was clunky, but easy to deal with, even fun. From what I gather the intention for Jagged Alliance 3 was to limit that micromanagement to a minimum, hence their decision for the inventory system.

Yes, it is not great and I also would like to iterate and improve on it. Haemimont games also stated in one of their Dev streams that their working build of the game had weights for each item, total carry weight by merc and even some fatigue built in. Apparently their playtesting did not go well with that inventory system but I think that it might be still part of the game engine.

Thus, it might be possible to enable it via a mod and expand on it. For example the devs did this for the chance to hit display - they released an official mod that shows it ingame.

Most of the systems you miss from JA2 are/were there, just need to be re-enabled.  

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365511 is a reply to message #365508] Thu, 20 July 2023 20:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Mravac Kid wrote on Thu, 20 July 2023 18:21
so far the only thing that really grates me is the worst feature of XCOM they imported, namely the "enemies get a free turn to hide".
That's not the only thing they imported from XCOM 2. This game is essentially another XCOM 2 clone with a Jagged Alliance skin. Quite literally. Camera angles, camera effects, how environmental destruction works, how cover works, how AI works, how the map grid looks, how the combat works, how the perks work and so on, it looks and feels identical to XCOM 2. Not surprisingly it's an Unreal Engine game just like XCOM 2 and I'm fairly sure XCOM 2 SDK was heavily utilized to build the skeleton structure of this game and it shows.

If you've played XCOM 2 or watched a video of it, try to think of the combat and the AI behavior. How the combat starts when Advent troops notice you, what they do, how they behave (pointing at you, shouting in some alien gibberish) and then immediately taking cover. Completely identical to the AI behavior in this game. How is that even possible do you think? They either used XCOM 2 code as base or they wrote a new code to imitate that. Which one is more plausible? I most definitely think it's the former.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2023 20:55]

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Private 1st Class
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365512 is a reply to message #365508] Thu, 20 July 2023 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadooow is currently offline Shadooow

 
Messages:109
Registered:April 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Mravac Kid wrote on Thu, 20 July 2023 17:21
Seems to me people wanted an officialized JA2 1.13, and this game is obviously not it. But if you look at it as a separate game, it's by far the best post-Sirtech sequel, so far the only thing that really grates me is the worst feature of XCOM they imported, namely the "enemies get a free turn to hide".
How did you come up with that?

But technically speaking, yes you are correct. I wanted JA3 to be more like 1.13, but didn't expected it, that would be unrealistic

I listed 7 points which I dislike on JA3, only one of them was related to 1.13 feature and by itself I could live with that and ignore it.

What killed JA3 for me was the way how developers raped the iconic mercenenaries and how the tactical combat works, namely cover and the free turn that enemies get to hide themselves. When I got into 3rd map and encountered a dozen of enemies and the battle started with them immediatelly hiding behind some obstacles, thats where I quit the game and haven't run it since because that combat is annoying and irritating to play.

Now I play Xenonauts 2, which will be in the core also an X-COM clone (I never played X-COM so I am not sure, judging by the fact that the plot revolves around aliens invading Earth and fighting them), but the tactical battles are far more JA2 like than in JA3 and despite it lacks many features of JA2 and their mercs, I keep playing it 3rd day and it is fun. I even found some mechanics to work better than in JA2.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2023 21:07]

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Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365513 is a reply to message #365512] Thu, 20 July 2023 21:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
Shadooow wrote on Thu, 20 July 2023 21:06

Now I play Xenonauts 2, which will be in the core also an X-COM clone (I never played X-COM so I am not sure, judging by the fact that the plot revolves around aliens invading Earth and fighting them), but the tactical battles are far more JA2 like than in JA3 and despite it lacks many features of JA2 and their mercs, I keep playing it 3rd day and it is fun. I even found some mechanics to work better than in JA2.
As far as I know, Xenonauts series are similar to original XCOM games of the 90's, not XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Within or XCOM 2. Different developer as well, MicroProse vs. Fraxis. Fraxis XCOMs, which some people call "nuXCOM", are similar to each other but different than the original XCOM (or Xenonauts).

[Updated on: Thu, 20 July 2023 21:41]

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Private 1st Class
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365514 is a reply to message #365513] Thu, 20 July 2023 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadooow is currently offline Shadooow

 
Messages:109
Registered:April 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Brms08 wrote on Thu, 20 July 2023 20:38
As far as I know, Xenonauts series are similar to original XCOM games of the 90's, not XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Within or XCOM 2. Different developer as well, MicroProse vs. Fraxis. Fraxis XCOMs, which some people call "nuXCOM", are similar to each other but different than the original XCOM (or Xenonauts).
Thanks for explanation.

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Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365523 is a reply to message #365421] Sat, 22 July 2023 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BATTLEMODE is currently offline BATTLEMODE

 
Messages:7
Registered:January 2021
Yes, Xenonauts 2 is a good game so far. Shame it's not quite finished, but it's shaping up to be a decent X-Com clone, far better than the FiraXCOM games IMO, which I think are highly over-rated

[Updated on: Sat, 22 July 2023 03:30]

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365524 is a reply to message #365523] Sat, 22 July 2023 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brms08

 
Messages:35
Registered:June 2008
BATTLEMODE wrote on Sat, 22 July 2023 01:25
Shame it's not quite finished
I thought July 18 was the release date of the full game, wasn't expecting it to be EA.

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Private 1st Class
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365542 is a reply to message #365524] Sun, 23 July 2023 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndrewCC is currently offline AndrewCC
Messages:2
Registered:July 2023
The only dealbreaker for me is that you can't ambush enemies. The most you can do is try to 1-shot enemies with a silenced sniper, which does not start turn based mode. But the second that fails, you go into turn based and enemies do the XCOM scramble into cover. It doesn't even matter if you set up overwatch ahead of time on other mercs, it will not trigger.
I could get over no Bobby Ray, I could get over having to play very conservatively because of ammo scarcity, but this shit breaks it for me.

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Civilian
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365560 is a reply to message #365542] Wed, 26 July 2023 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anthropoid is currently offline Anthropoid

 
Messages:145
Registered:February 2014
I'm enjoying the hell out of JA3, with all its deficiencies and simplifications! I dearly loved JA2.1.13, and must have played it 500 hours or thereabouts. But two things would invariably grind down my enthusiasm and engagement, and no matter how resolved I was to finish a play through, I'd wind up moving on to other stuff: (1) SO MUCH tedious gear manipulation and shuffling around by mid-game and it just got worse in late-game; (2) Having played probably ~7,000 hours in games with the graphical limitations of the late 1990s and early 2000s, I reserve the right to eschew the visual austerity of the age and state unequivocally that: trying to play those games is painful.

I do NOT think that the way JA3 handles inventory and creates scarcity is a "good solution" to Problem #1 of the ultra-naturalism in JA2.1.13. Far from it. That is one part of the game that undermines the experience badly.

It seems that these developers have sought to make modding the game relatively easy, or at least that is how it seems given that the number of items on the Steam workshop has been growing by about 10 to 20 per day. This gives me some hope that, we may see some sort of "JA2.1.13 Remake Mod" for JA3; though the fact that the source code has always been available for JA2 probably means that the such a mod to JA3 would never be able to overhaul the game to such a massive extent as JA2.1.13

[Updated on: Wed, 26 July 2023 22:07]

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Sergeant
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365578 is a reply to message #365560] Fri, 28 July 2023 04:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tako_muro is currently offline tako_muro

 
Messages:14
Registered:October 2016
Location: Middle of Sout East or Ea...
Howdy;

We need JA3 1.13 -including but not limited to- proper Bobby Ryan, proper AIM, proper IMP, proper combat mechanics, proper inventory system, proper maps, proper...  damn, it takes too long to write them all; simply put: take graphics from JA3 and implement it to JA2 1.13 or take everything but graphics from JA2 1.13 and implement it to JA3 please. It's the way.

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365643 is a reply to message #365421] Sat, 12 August 2023 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bole is currently offline bole

 
Messages:58
Registered:November 2002
After a week of playing, no mods.

1. Managing several squads is too complicated. Instead of seeing all the merks, you have to switch from one squad to another to see what they  are doing and assign them tasks.

2. Ammo availability. Despite being in the warzone and everyone and their grandmother totting AKs and FAMAS, you must make your own ammo. Usually you need to spend 6 or more shots to kill an enemy, and they come en masse at you especially in underground sectors. Not counting the misses.

3. Inventory is laughable, with some magical hammer space where all ammo is carried. No magazines nor clips. Management of it and the sector inventory is needlessly more complicated, especially with several squads in the same sector.

4. You can train but you cannot assign militia without speaking directly to specific NPC. Did not further check this.

5. Merchants exits, you interact with store by interacting with objects, not merchants, and they usually have one item to sell (and always the same). Sometimes 2 or 3 items.

6. Ambushing enemy forces is impossible. They have initiative and go for the cover when ever you spot them. Also, if your sector is attacked, and you know the timing and position of attacking forces, you cannot deploy your team in the position you find preferable. You must choose one of the preexisting deployment areas that someone somewhere had chosen for you, without knowing your team's composition and abilities.

7. Terrain obstacles, cover and concealment. I have no idea how the heck this works. I get shot while in prone, four or five squares off the ledge, by an enemy that is a level bellow.

8. Overwatch uses only burst, if weapon has such ability, further wasting your ammo.

9. Modding (crafting) weapons. So I  now somehow magically make a rifle scope while hunkering in the middle of a savannah. Ok. And those things cannot be transferred from one weapon to another, but you must "mod" it anew.

10. Dragunov uses 7,62x39 now. .44 cal Peacemakers as a weapon.

Just things that came to my mind in about 2 minutes.

No appeal regarding the weapon choices.

Some appeal regarding the tactical solutions, but since enemy always starts the combat form the concealment, it gets repetitive. Shoot at them from the distance of possible, hope they run into your overwatch or snipe them off using silencer and hope they don't notice/ Do not try to ambush them, since thy always have upper hand.

3d terrain is a nice novelty, but it wears off fast because of point 7.

In other words, simplified, arcade, dumbed down version of the game. If you will, "JA2 that we have home". JA2's mentally challenged cousin.

Wait for 2 years for it to get cheaper and maybe modded. Maybe.

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Corporal
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365828 is a reply to message #365542] Sun, 19 November 2023 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTrin is currently offline BlueTrin

 
Messages:17
Registered:April 2008
AndrewCC wrote on Sun, 23 July 2023 19:54
The only dealbreaker for me is that you can't ambush enemies. The most you can do is try to 1-shot enemies with a silenced sniper, which does not start turn based mode. But the second that fails, you go into turn based and enemies do the XCOM scramble into cover. It doesn't even matter if you set up overwatch ahead of time on other mercs, it will not trigger.
I could get over no Bobby Ray, I could get over having to play very conservatively because of ammo scarcity, but this shit breaks it for me.
Bobby Ray was added in an update

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Private
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365897 is a reply to message #365828] Wed, 14 February 2024 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
1Sascha is currently offline 1Sascha
Messages:3
Registered:February 2024
Lifelong lurker here, but I thought I'd finally join up to chime in on JA3.

So far, I wouldn't call it disappointing but it certainly feels underwhelming to me.

More importantly, it feels wrong tonally, starting with that *stupid* disclaimer about the humor and tone of the original games.

I think I've put it this way in a YT-comment: If JA2 was "Scream", then JA3 feels more like "Scary Movie" or one of those even worse spoof-movies of the 2000s ("Meet the Spartans", etc). I really, really need to install that "shut up Mercs!"-mod I already found on Steam Workshop. Whose existence itself is an indication that the devs didn't *really* get the tone of the original titles.

Other than that:
- Inventory system feels like a *huge* step-down from even vanilla JA2 but especially from the excellent re-vamped inventory system of 1.13.
- Maps look pretty generic somehow with not much to explore/find, and when there *is* stuff to discover, the game will flash a huge pointer over it and even tell you what to do with the object and what Merc you should be using.
- UI looks and feels dumbed down somehow but at the same time more complicated than either Vanilla or 1.13's. Not sure how they did that, but that's my impression. I think it's the same basic "design flaw" that I already disliked in Civ VI's UI which also manages to take functions that were accessible on a single screen/menu and spreads them out over multiple different menus/tabs/screens - making things look more confusing and less intuitive to operate without a real need to do so because functionally there's no real difference between the current game and its predecessors. Take the whole "Operations" sub-screen(s) for example. In JA2 I open a simple pull-down menu with a single mouse-click, then use another click to set my Merc to the task I wish him to do. In JA3 OTOH I need to open a whole separate screen and additional sub-screens to do this. Also: What was wrong with JA1/JA2's excellent way of showing the Mercs' current status (health/stamina/morale/etc) via colored bars? Not only do I need a mod to show me some of that info in JA3 I also don't have a place where I can check everyone's current status at a glance.

Which leads me to the main satellite-view/map-view in general: In JA2, all the info on my Mercs and their current status and activities is right there on the map-view in an easy to read and understand format. In JA3 everything is spread out into sub-screens and sub-menus - even the main functions I'll need to access regularly ("browser", "merc info", etc) are "hidden" in their own little sub-menu. In JA2's map-view, everything is accessible on the main UI-layer and by a single mouse-click and all the vital statistics of my team, finances, etc are right there on the first layer of the UI.

I've only done three or four sectors on the tutorial island at this point, but I feel like this will not turn into the same "time-stealer" that JA1 and JA2 were for me. I guess the best thing I can say at this point is that it made me check my old HDD I transplanted into this PC from my last one to see if I still had 1.13 installed on there. Which I did and, wouldn't you know it?, it even started and ran without any sort of fuss on this machine.

EDIT: I have since finished the tutorial island and reached the mainland and things have improved a bit for me. Story still feels largely forgettable and the issues with the UI continue to upset me. I also find it rather dumb that they included a crafting system to upgrade the guns. Apparently, it's no problem MacGyver-ing your own 10x sniper scope if you have some scrap-metal and a lens on you. I know this is probably a nod to the older games' "crafting", but I've no idea why this is preferable to JA2's system with ready-made scopes and accessories - or why it is necessary to put another additional screen into the game to modify the guns. Again: What was wrong with JA2's system where you customized your stuff from within the main character-/inventory-screen?

Here's hoping that folks with a little better understanding of what made these games so great will get to modding and at least correct the mistakes that can be corrected via mods (UI, inventory system).

S.

[Updated on: Thu, 15 February 2024 10:39]

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Civilian
Re: JA3: The Bimbo of Jagged Alliance [message #365989 is a reply to message #365897] Mon, 25 March 2024 18:54 Go to previous message
Cagemonkey is currently offline Cagemonkey

 
Messages:275
Registered:December 2001
Location: Sweden
Finally having played it I was surprised how it was. It has a lot going for it. It looks and handles nice. I like the setting and the touch of brooding darkness of the real world blood diamond conflicts. It's easy for a game like JA to just goof off with silly mercs and NPC's. Making it a bit grounded, tragic and deep makes the fun parts more fun. And yes, placing the comedyin a setting of war, slavery and murder is tasteless but that's what makes it work. Guns, combat and carrying system is of course dumbed down a bit too much if you ask me.

Sure I miss the complexity of 1.13 but I think this could be moded to something amazing. I'm giving it a strong 4 out of 5 and I have only been playing for three days. Might like it even more.

If JA3 is the bimbo of the series I sure don't mind sniffing my fingers after each session.

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Master Sergeant
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