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Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #188847]

Mon, 16 June 2008 09:27

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Thanks!

I mostly use POV-Ray, so I'll look into creating a startup scene with the correct camera and lights for it.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #188851]

Mon, 16 June 2008 11:38

lisac

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

You might want to play with lights for some time, in order to achieve the optimal shading. If you need any help or have questions (which I'll gladly add to the tutorial, altogether with the best answers we can find), don't hesitate to ask.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #188901]

Tue, 17 June 2008 04:44

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

I'm curious as to the lighting parameters. Did you extrapolate these based on your own experiments, or are there some design docs you referred to that were written by the original authors?

Also, the tutorial mentions a second point light source. What are its positional coordinates?

What settings should I use for texture diffuse and specularity?

I don't currently have the game installed on my machine. Could you post a side-by-side comparison of the old and new sprites as they are seen in the game?

Thanks!

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #189107]

Thu, 19 June 2008 09:45

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Any more info?

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #189124]

Thu, 19 June 2008 12:46

lisac

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Please, Mikail, don't spam the board.

True, I've forgot to put the info about the position of the 2nd light source, and there it goes now - (XYZ: -15, 15, 20). This info has been added to the tutorial.

Your question about surfaces has been added and answered in the FAQs of the tutorial.

Comparison of the new and old sprites was presented in the first thread I've started many moons ago... I guess it's been deleted. I'll hang a pic or two later today.

Edit: There is a small comparison picture, so you can see what it looks like in-game. As you can see, my model is a bit taller and "short-haired", also its stance is a bit different - this is all part of the experiment right now.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1392/comparefq3.png

[Updated on: Thu, 19 June 2008 14:23] by Moderator

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #189261]

Sat, 21 June 2008 10:54

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Thanks!

I also notice that your model is lit a bit more and from a slightly different angle. The shadow of the image on the right seems to angle at a 2:1 ratio. The angle of the shadow on the left is a bit "shallower".

I'll have to experiment a bit on my own.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #189312]

Sun, 22 June 2008 02:31

lisac

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Not bad at all, if you manage to find another successful lighting/shading/surface formula, feel free to share the knowledge with us. Any valuable info will be added to the tutorial, and you will be, of course, credited for your work.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #189971]

Wed, 02 July 2008 05:12

BallerDave

Messages:71
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

hey guys whats the story on this project? is it ever going to be implemented? i have watched this thread for months and read through most of the posts since the beginning. so im jus gettin a lil scared this mightnt be implemented after all because there is so little going on in this thread

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190063]

Thu, 03 July 2008 18:01

lisac

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Well, we're still "working" on it. The biggest problem right now is the number of participants in this project (only two, BirdFlu and me), respectively their free time. It's summer, a lot of people take a vacation or have to substitute their colleagues (which already took the vacation) - I know I'm one of those "substitutions."

When I catch some free time, I'm gonna do the walking animation set for Gina...

Generally, it's being worked on, but many moons will pass away before we have something to show off.

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190138]

Sat, 05 July 2008 18:35

BallerDave

Messages:71
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

ok fair enough Smile

)
nonono time is not a problem, i was just afraif u guys have dropped it. anyways, best of luck, what u guys are doin might be one of the greatest additions since 1.13 yet Wink

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190282]

Tue, 08 July 2008 04:07

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

lisac

Not bad at all, if you manage to find another successful lighting/shading/surface formula, feel free to share the knowledge with us. Any valuable info will be added to the tutorial, and you will be, of course, credited for your work.

Can you think of any sprites that have a very regular shape and cast a shadow, such as a flagpole? I would be able to calculate the lighting angle from something like that. (Please post any you may find here as I don't have the game or STI tools installed at the moment.)

As for light intensity, ambient lighting, light diffusion, etc., I'm not sure what I could use as a basis of my experiments. I think I would need some sort of reference object where the qualities were known for sure beforehand, and where I could measure the differences. The fact that all sprites are normalized to the same ranges of cyan, magenta, yellow, etc., is slightly helpful, but not sufficient on its own. Do you have any ideas along these lines? I'm thinking that a (existing) sprite whose features are regular across all angles, such as a perfect sphere with a single color, might be somewhat useful.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190284]

Tue, 08 July 2008 04:23

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

On another note, how much communication exists between the JA2 community and Sir Tech? Has anyone thought to bug them for some original art assets? Not a whole lot would be needed--just enough to determine basic scene settings when making renders.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190286]

Tue, 08 July 2008 09:25

lockie

Messages:3714
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland

I doubt very much anyone at sirtech is going to give freebies away !

Show me the money !!

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Captain

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190293]

Tue, 08 July 2008 11:42

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Aww come on lockie we haven't even asked yet!

Someone send Chris an email (I don't have it) or PM him and see if it can be done Wink

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190296]

Tue, 08 July 2008 12:32

lockie

Messages:3714
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland

Quote:

Aww come on lockie we haven't even asked yet!

Someone send Chris an email (I don't have it) or PM him and see if it can be done

you're right , maybe they WILL be amenable , but on past form , any negotiations between Bearpit and Sirtech seem to have all been about the money . cynical , cynical me . If Shanga wants to pm them , he's the best bet I think :headbanger:
ps , have you cleaned out your message box yet , I've been trying to get through mate .

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Captain

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190306]

Tue, 08 July 2008 17:27

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Cleaned up my box (both my comp and my PM box!), just waiting on the 4870x2's from AMD to come along and my comp will be futureproofed for at least a month Wink

As for sprites its good to hear lisac and birdflu are still working on it Smile

Sirtech doesn't exist any more does it? The website hasn't been updated since 2003 and I thought the staff had moved on. Hence why I think they may be more amenable. But I could be wrong Razz

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190362]

Wed, 09 July 2008 12:06

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Just be sure to stress the fact that we don't need *all* the art assets, just a few examples. They might be more receptive if we keep our demands to a minimum.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190382]

Wed, 09 July 2008 17:27

Red Rooster

Messages:1
Registered:July 2008

So, what can I do to help?

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Civilian

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190413]

Thu, 10 July 2008 02:19

lisac

Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Red_Rooster

So, what can I do to help?

You can start by reading the first post of this thread and trying to understand it in details. Then you can ask more questions or start working on your ow, whatever you prefer.

@Mikhail: I'm really not sure what kind of "game object" would satisfy your need to determine the proper angles/shading. You might want to install the game first and extract all of its sprites/tiles/objects, then try to find something suitable for such a task...

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Corporal 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics – Sprites (2)[message #190425]

Thu, 10 July 2008 09:26

Starwalker

Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany

lisac

@Mikhail: I'm really not sure what kind of "game object" would satisfy your need to determine the proper angles/shading. You might want to install the game first and extract all of its sprites/tiles/objects, then try to find something suitable for such a task...

Are the lamp-posts not casting a proper shadow during daytime?

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First Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190616]

Sun, 13 July 2008 06:09

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Starwalker

lisac
@Mikhail: I'm really not sure what kind of "game object" would satisfy your need to determine the proper angles/shading. You might want to install the game first and extract all of its sprites/tiles/objects, then try to find something suitable for such a task...

Are the lamp-posts not casting a proper shadow during daytime?

I am preparing to extract the STIs right now. The first thing I have to do is find a translation of SLF Explorer.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190620]

Sun, 13 July 2008 07:25

Khor1255

Messages:1815
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ

SLF Explore is a simple drag and drop interface. Just point the left box to the slf you want to extract then make a folder for the right box to extract it into.

You can also use other extractor tools like Dragon Unpacker which I believe is freeware.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190625]

Sun, 13 July 2008 08:23

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Khor1255

SLF Explore is a simple drag and drop interface. Just point the left box to the slf you want to extract then make a folder for the right box to extract it into.

Thanks! I didn't realize you could drag-and-drop.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190626]

Sun, 13 July 2008 08:30

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

lisac

@Mikhail: I'm really not sure what kind of "game object" would satisfy your need to determine the proper angles/shading. You might want to install the game first and extract all of its sprites/tiles/objects, then try to find something suitable for such a task...

Hmmm... the ellipses above lead me to hesitate when delving further, despite this:

lisac

If you need any help or have questions (which I'll gladly add to the tutorial, altogether with the best answers we can find), don't hesitate to ask.

Also,

Mikail

I also notice that your model is lit a bit more and from a slightly different angle. The shadow of the image on the right seems to angle at a 2:1 ratio. The angle of the shadow on the left is a bit "shallower".

I notice that the STIs for static objects *do* use a 2:1 pixel ratio for shadows. Not sure which is proper.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #190681]

Mon, 14 July 2008 03:18

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find any perfect spheres in any of the STIs, except for one which was partially obstructed by the statue that holds it, and was too shiny to boot. I'll keep looking for suitable items.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #192514]

Fri, 01 August 2008 01:06

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

Did anyone end up sending an email to the IP holders? If not, who should I email it to?

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #192561]

Fri, 01 August 2008 14:15

Shanga

Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

Once upon a time we tried to force some information about STIs and JSDs from the developers. Under intense, painfull torture, done by the book by our special guest Diedranna, they told us nothing.

Right now the IP holder is Strategy First.

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Captain

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #195483]

Sun, 31 August 2008 20:32

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

You can find some links/source code for special effects animations at my POV-Ray page, here. You're free to use them in your own efforts. There's also some other objects like walls, floors, props, etc. There aren't very many, but they are all constructed from geometric primitives, so they can be scaled/resized/etc. to fit your needs.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #202243]

Sat, 22 November 2008 18:09

RustKnight

Messages:20
Registered:May 2008
Location: Romania

Did the progress on this project reach a halt ? some difficulties?

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Private 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #204562]

Sun, 21 December 2008 10:03

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

I see there hasn't been much happening in this thread for a while, but if the sprite improvement project is a possibility what bout a change in scale too or would that be too major?

For instance if there is a change in scale perhaps we can use placeholder images from an already done isometric game (hint: Fallout Tactics) temporarily until we can update to include new images. I think there are things like Crouch and Prone anims that are missing, but they can be made up as needed (lot of work I know, especially with multi section gfx).

If the scale of the game was increased it would make increased resolutions and big maps of greater use.

The more I think about it though it may end up being too much work when when compared to using a 3D engine that could do it far quicker and easier than Isometric with Sprites.

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #204996]

Sat, 27 December 2008 14:26

Nixou

Messages:57
Registered:January 2008
Location: France

Kaerar

The more I think about it though it may end up being too much work when when compared to using a 3D engine that could do it far quicker and easier than Isometric with Sprites.

Yeah, i think using the graphic engine of a hired guns or JA3( if it exists) will be much better for the future of 1.13

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #205013]

Sat, 27 December 2008 17:51

BallerDave

Messages:71
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

Nik

Kaerar

The more I think about it though it may end up being too much work when when compared to using a 3D engine that could do it far quicker and easier than Isometric with Sprites.

Yeah, i think using the graphic engine of a hired guns or JA3( if it exists) will be much better for the future of 1.13

now im really curious who'd transform the whole engine -.-

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #205060]

Sun, 28 December 2008 11:40

Nixou

Messages:57
Registered:January 2008
Location: France

It has been done by the past yet, for another great community game: baldur's gate. They had recreated BG1 with BG2 much better graphical engine.

But sure it is an amazing work. Would be much more simple to make a "JA3 1.13", but it will be impossible before they give the source code, so let's say in 2020 if the game is released in 2010.

Anyway for the future, modability setting of 1.13 graphics is destined to pass through a 3D graphic engine, if the 1.13 project still lives by the time.

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #206245]

Tue, 13 January 2009 18:25

cooldeadjim

Messages:33
Registered:February 2008
Location: N.Y., USA

why not use the Jagged Brigade engine? speaking of which, i wonder what development were made for that.

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Private 1st Class

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #206281]

Wed, 14 January 2009 01:05

zilpin

Messages:63
Registered:October 2007

Quote:

They had recreated BG1 with BG2 much better graphical engine.

Who? I don't remember anyone finishing an open source Baldur's Gate engine.

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Corporal

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #206293]

Wed, 14 January 2009 04:44

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

Wasn't open source, they converted BG1 to the BG2 engine.

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #212392]

Tue, 07 April 2009 23:10

SharkD

Messages:350
Registered:July 2003

The GIMP has an awesome color adjustment tool that IMO should be used by 1.13. It allows you to pick up to six independent channels and adjust their hue, saturation and lightness. Here's a screenshot:

http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp292/SharkD2161/Support/th_gimp_color_adjustment.png

This method is backwards-compatible with the existing game sprites, so the existing sprites would not need to be changed (though switching to a more popular image format, such as PNG, would probably be a good idea). The main benefit would be that it also opens up the possibility for modders to use 32-bit images with transparency channels.

-Mike

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Master Sergeant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #220758]

Fri, 12 June 2009 11:57

James009

Messages:2
Registered:June 2008
Location: USA

So... am I getting this right. JA2's engine just doesn't support this project?

It all looks rather complex but you guys are doing an excellent job.

[Updated on: Fri, 12 June 2009 12:05] by Moderator

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Civilian

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #220800]

Fri, 12 June 2009 13:59

Kaerar

Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D

JA2's engine doesn't support it at the moment, but some were working on it. I hope Birdflu continues Smile

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving the original JA2 graphics [message #220839]

Fri, 12 June 2009 16:32

The_Bob

Messages:415
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.

It will certainly be a lot of work to add multi-layered sprite support to the engine. And tenfold that to re-create all the sprites. So does it look realistic at this point or did the project hit a wall ?

Anyhow, making the engine work with 3D objects would probably take more work then both of the above combined. Not only would we need new models for the characters, we'd also need 3D models for all of the scenery, textures (palleted for mercs/militia/soldiers), figure out the placement of lights and then make all the 3D mechanics work with the game, without completely braking the feel of the original. Not to mention all the stuff we'd want to implement if the game was going to be 3D (and the mess that would result).

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Master Sergeant

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