Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » STOMP v1.1 Release
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257188]
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Thu, 22 July 2010 19:03  
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 LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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SandroThe level already influences everything in game. Lol. Just what I was thinking and preparing to say.
Sandrounlocking certain abilities... Lovely idea. Level 50, here I come! Lvl50 Stealth means merging with the shadows and summoning fog, Lvl50 Heavy Weapons gets you a mail from Barack Obama who supports you with his arsenal. Lol. Lvl50 teaching gets you a ridiculously low salary and an unstable job at the still destroyed Cambria university, due to our severely cut educational budget.
SandroIt just doesn't fit to JA2. There it is, the most ambivalent topic about JA2. Stay true to the original that got so successful or experiment and try new ways? I wouldn't want the game to feel like Diablo 2 either. But gaming history has proven the fact that players love developing their avatars, in JA2 that means improving stats. It's not the number one main aspect of the game, but one of the biggest. It keeps the game alive and interesting and gives you one more reason to play it again and again even if you already know the story.
Sandrosuch a thing cannot be learned in a 10 minutes. Takes a year practicing. Same applies to leveling, I suppose. In one month of service, a merc gains years of experience. If that's your problem, then don't apply the selected trait until certain events have happened, like gaining more skill points, so you're setting a goal which the merc then has to achieve:silversurferYou practiced shooting to level up and then chose demolition expert as a trait? Take this example. You've leveled up, choose to become a demoman and have that trait greyed out with a certain requirement - Have a minimum explosives level, gain 50 trait score points by handling explosives, throwing grenades and dealing damage with them. After 20 days of grenade juggling you get some cool LvlUp sound and you receive your desired trait. Wooosh!
silversurferIf you unlock traits for practice that doesn't make sense to me either. Neither to me. Traits are supposed to show specializations, what mercs are particularly good at and unlike skills, traits can't be improved. That's why the whole idea of unlockable traits feels so wrong to most of you, I think. Nevertheless, there are possible limitations like the mentioned requirements. Additionally, the merc data could contain information about which traits are or aren't available for the merc to choose. And I don't see why an intelligent and constantly teaching merc wouldn't have the chance to become an even better teacher.
NickfighterSPECIAL achievements + a minimum skill requirement Exactly. Only not bound to single achievements, but basically lots of circumstances like shots fired, suppression created... okay, that would need more data to be stored, same problem as with the laptop data thread. But it would drastically help balancing everything. If half of your trait xp is gained by killing, this will lead to exploits and typical frag stealing behaviour.
WarmSteelsome static things and some RPG elements is a nice variation [...] I think Sandro's system is already very elaborate. Agreed. It's interesting to see the effect, though. And we're not discussing the elimination of the current system, but new ideas that can be worth testing. It's an experimental thing going on here, this doesn't have anything to do with solid improvement, it can rather add more depth potential to the game. I have to say, I love the creativity stage where everybody just joins in and shares his mind, even if it always sounds a slight bit awkward, because it's all fairytales and reverie and far away from the original game, but that's what the logical stage is for, where everything gets channeled, refined, filtered and fit to the game. I still remember that uproar when Sandro wanted to take the +10% CtH bonus away from psychos. No way! How could he possibly do that?
There's one thing I know about this community. There are lots of stupid ideas flying around, most of them coming out of my mouth, but through meaningful dialogue we pick the best pieces and put them together to one beautiful mod cake. And Sandro's got a pretty good oven and some baking talent. If an idea is bad, it won't make it. If I suggested putting trainable pets in there that only obey to their befriended mercs and have these mercs send their pets into combat while gesticulating wildly and wearing really bad haircuts, don't be afraid that JA2 will finally feature pop music and subtitles only available in Japanese. But it might lead to somebody picking up the idea of adding some sort of friend/foe behaviour to the AI that is not based on the fraction you belong to, leading to militia only shooting the merc who shot them in the first place in retaliation rather than killing every living being on the planet... etc. It's not about the content, but the idea behind it. Well, and then about the content. Roflpofl.
L
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| STOMP v2 ???!!![message #257192]
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Thu, 22 July 2010 19:40
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| Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars |
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Anything is possible.. it only takes time and effort.
...
Just had to comment...
I kinda don't want to follow and copy Fallout's way or any other game's way.
I also am not very opened to break the whole system just because one merc (Dr.Q).
What I think is, that the game now needs to expand its mechanics - posibilities and usability of current attributes/skills.
Lets leave the skill traits as they are now... look at other things...
What about this: Separate 0-100 scaled attributes from less important attributes. Make the less important attributes based on something like "profficiency" levels. Probably expand the remaining 0-100 scale based attributes.
One problem still is, that certain attributes/skills are incomparable with others concerning their importance - like medical vs marksmanship. Why not to create another group of merc properties? Something like...
----------------------------------------------------
"Soldier's composition"
----------------------------------------------------
---- Experience: ----
Level 1-10
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---- Attributes: ----
Health 0-100
Strength 0-100
Agility 0-100
Dexterity 0-100
Perception 0-100 (Focus, good eyes, ears; affects shooting, interrupts, lot of things))
Wisdom 0-100
Marksmanship 0-100
Leadership 0-100
---- Can be profficient at: ----
Medical 0-2
Explosives 0-2
Lockpicking 0-2
Repairing 0-2
Stealth 0-2
Driving 0-2
Survival 0-2
Discipline 0-2
--------------------------------
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Explanation of profficiencies:
--------------------------------
Medical:
0 : can only bandage (not dying) mercs, with penalties and a small chance to actually hurt someone
1 point: Can bandage normally, even dying soldiers
2 points: Allowed treatment (doctoring) assignment
Explosives:
0 : can only try to set simple mines, with penalty
1 : can place mines and bombs normally (door bombs included)
2 : Can attach detonators( also create from nightwatches and wires), disarm bombs and mines
Lockpicking:
0 : cannot lockpick anything at all, only examine doors for traps
1 : can lockpick doors (based on exp level and difficulty of lock), but not electronic locks
2 : can untrap doors, basic lockpicking gets better, can unlock electronic locks
Repairing:
0 : can only repair items with 60+% status to 90% status, with repair difficulty 0 or easier, slow speed
1 : can repair (electronical) items with 30+% status to 95%, with repair difficulty not under -4, normal speed
2 : can repair items on any status to 100%, also electronic items, robot, vehicles, fast speed
Stealth:
0 : cannot move silently, camouflage has 70% effect, moving reduces camo/cover effectiveness drastically, makes more noise overally
1 : can move silently, camo has 85% effect, movement reduces camo/cover effect normally, makes normal noise, but certain actions are still lod(climbing on/off roofs, jumping fences, running, swimming etc)
2 : can kill completely silently (bare hands/knife), camo effectiveness full, cover bonus
Driving:
0 : can drive, but slowly and damages the car from time to time, cannot drive offroad
1 : can drive normally, although if driving off road the car is damaged from time to time
2 : can pilot helicopter (muhaha), and everything drivable, even tanks
Survival:
0 : loses a lot more energy when traveling outside the cities, sometimes get even slightly hurt, can regain energy only to 60% status if sleeping in the wilderness
1 : loses energy normally when travelling, can only regain energy to 80% if sleeping outside
2 : can regain full energy, also helps others with 0 Survival in the squad (reduces slightly their penalties)
Discipline:
0 : firing scares the shit out of you - suppression is very effective on you, morale cannot go higher than 80%, all your negative traits(form personality or disability) have higher effect
1 : medium suppression effectiveness for you, morale can go to 100%, negative features of your character have normal effect
2 : has suppression tolerance bonus, all positive features of your character are higher, practicing/student assignments go faster
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---- Effects of Skill Traits: ----
Generaly Skill Traits would remain almost the same, or at least their core. Certain proficiencies would get bonus from Skill Traits, and certain Skill Traits would have minimal proficiencies to be picked up (minimal requirements).
Paramedics need Medical at least 1, Doctors at least 2..
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---- Gainig proficiencies: ----
There are several ways on my mind how to become proficient at something, I am not sure about this yet..
1) You choose some at creation, then gain them automatically when doing respective actions
2) You choose some at creation, then learn them at certain facilities (specially designed for it)
3) You choose some at creation, then choose one new at every gained exp level
...
I like the idea #2, maybe combined with #3.
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Well, of course the game mechanics would have to be rebalanced. This is a very rough concept, just what came to my mind now. There could be more levels of proficiencies.. or not.
If anyone would like this and be enthusiastic enough.. All this is within my capabilities. I would need help though. Mainly it would have to be worked to a very good concept.
It would be a bold project indeed. If enough people would join and create it.
Also, nice thing, if we would add to the game more mechanics and stuff to make playability wider - more explosives (satchels, triggered grenades, more powerful grenades etc.), (almost) permanent damages to items, injuring body parts, grapple checks, enhanced interrupting... whoa... I rather stop here..
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257194]
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Thu, 22 July 2010 20:00
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| Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars |
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LootFraggBut gaming history has proven the fact that players love developing their avatars Yeah. God knows, that if JA wouldn't have the character improvement element, I would probably never play it. But now! You know what's better than building up your char? Building up the ENTIRE GAME! Muhahahahaaaaaa... .. .. oh.. eh.. nevermind.
Anyway, lead this game element to some ultra-sophisticated system would be cool. Include specific "favorite weapon"... weapon knowledge for general.. whatever. Anyone played Thwe Witcher btw?
LootFraggTake this example. You've leveled up, choose to become a demoman and have that trait greyed out with a certain requirement - Have a minimum explosives level, gain 50 trait score points by handling explosives, throwing grenades and dealing damage with them. After 20 days of grenade juggling you get some cool LvlUp sound and you receive your desired trait. Wooosh! I like that!
LootFraggOnly not bound to single achievements, but basically lots of circumstances like shots fired, suppression created... okay, that would need more data to be stored, same problem as with the laptop data thread. But it would drastically help balancing everything. If half of your trait xp is gained by killing, this will lead to exploits and typical frag stealing behaviour. In fact, I solved the problem with adding many new variables, and they fit to be used for this feature as well. Quite perfectly actually.
LootFraggI have to say, I love the creativity stage where everybody just joins in and shares his mind, even if it always sounds a slight bit awkward, because it's all fairytales and reverie and far away from the original game, but that's what the logical stage is for, where everything gets channeled, refined, filtered and fit to the game. I also love it when it starts to roll. Brainstorming they call that, I can see why...
[quote=LootFragg]I still remember that uproar when Sandro wanted to take the +10% CtH bonus away from psychos. No way! How could he possibly do that?
Haha. Me too. It was +15% btw. And I left it there - if you choose old traits that is.. oups! Spoiler...
LootFraggBut it might lead to somebody picking up the idea of adding some sort of friend/foe behaviour to the AI that is not based on the fraction you belong to, leading to militia only shooting the merc who shot them in the first place in retaliation rather than killing every living being on the planet... etc. I ROFL! 
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257210]
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Thu, 22 July 2010 22:22
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Fuck, you're just too fast. I'm just too slow and it's just too warm around here. SandroThere could be more levels of proficiencies. That's what I was going to write before having read this line and I still will, go to hell! =D
Oh, I love it, like almost always. But I think 3 levels are a bit too few. Medical for example. I know it's hard to make more skill levels if they don't only multiply values like +20% speed, +40% speed..., but I still think it should look a slight bit more like
Medical:
0 : Can't do anything medical aside from horrificly slowly bandaging light wounds of conscious mercs. Everything else causes chaos. This is for people who are not intended to serve as medics. Gasket?
1 : Can slowly bandage others' wounds unless they're knocked out or critically wounded. Doesn't harm others that often when caring for their wounds.
2 : Can bandage himself and others, is slower when bandaging critical wounds or himself. Can work even when mercs have fainted. Regular first-aider, no risk of causing health damage.
3 : Can treat all kinds of wounds, even of dying mercs, and is faster doing so, like normal, can nurse patients, but is really inefficient. Can opt to learn the Paramedic trait if you want to integrate that feature. Takes a bit less APs for starting first aid.
4 : Is a good healer, but still slow at nursing. If 3 is the basic paramedic, 4 is just better. If having Paramedic trait, can now perform bad surgeries with risk of dealing high status damage.
5 : Fast at bandaging, average at nursing, can only get here if having chosen the holy path of the Paramedic lol. Surgeries still suck, but regularly heal an average amount of HPs. Can choose to become a friggin' Doctor.
6 : Dying mercs get bandaged as fast as normally wounded mercs. Restores a small amount of lost stamina up to a certain limit (+8 points if <20% for example) on critically wounded mercs. More HPs on surgery, less breath loss when doing so, less status damage if it fails. Even less APs needed for starting bandaging.
7 : Is pretty awesome as a medic, restores stamina up to higher values (not much though), can cure status damage when nursing, but not more than 10 points per merc, whatever. If Doctor already, surgery works well, increases natural regeneration, but negligible.
8 : Needs to be a Doctor in order to get here. Is a speedo at bandaging and gets severely wounded mercs up quickly by restoring a percentage of lost stamina (up to...). Real value is at doctoring, can heal more stat points, doesn't take ages for doing so, is decently fast and surgeries always work out well, even when still draining fatigue like always.
9 : Unlimited stat healing, bigger natural regeneration bonus, surgeries heal a good amount while draining less medical bag ressources. Basically a number one top medical merc.
10 : Ultimate level, because stopping at 9 sucks balls. Good regeneration bonus even on working mercs (still negligible), surgeries are an epic win as they drain only a small amount of fatigue.
If Diablo 2: Can revive dead corpses using CPR, can throw shuriken shaped like the Red Cross, can lure Pacos and give him a flu shot he won't ever recover from, then tell Fatima he died of throat cancer or something.
/Medical
This is very detailed, I agree. Make it less, I don't mind, but I just don't want such a skill to consist of 3 levels only. Less levels means more importance, but also far higher thresholds. I can either help a great deal or I'm a loser. This would equalize mercs who are otherwise different from each other in that field. MED 30 or MED 60? I don't care, you're all level 1. For example.
Also, more game mechanics stuff... if I was gay and you were a woman - it would still be a good idea... I don't even drink, wtf!
SandroBuilding up the ENTIRE GAME! Muhahahahaaaaaa... Probably the reason why I'm serving as a mindless slave instead of actually playing. That's like cooking. Which I don't. And making plans to rule the world. It's just fun.
silversurferIf they could learn anything, what makes them special? LootFraggthe merc data could contain information about which traits are or aren't available for the merc to choose. Gasket can't become "Paramedic". He can become "Demolitions" expert though. Michael Dawson can increase his "Paramedic" skill to "Doctor", but he will never become a "Squad Leader". See? They're still roughly defined, but nevertheless have more options so I can choose to integrate Ice Williams into my sneak-ops crew rather than going for machine gunning expert.
SandroThat I like it still does not mean I'll do it, so easy... I can send you pictures of cute kitten I took in Ireland. Then I can tell you what could happen to these innocent beings if you don't do it. But I won't. Because you will comply. I'm just kidding of course. Or am I? DO IT! No pressure. Not if you don't like kitten anyway. Rofl.
---
Edit - Game Mechanics oi
Sandro(almost) permanent damages to items How about a sort of mechanical surgery? This gun's permanently damaged by 25%. Do you want your super elite technician-like merc to rebuild it from scratch using all the tools he's got available? Warning: Could destroy the gun even further and will use up most of your tool kit. --> Yeah, make it shine again! / Nah, drop shit to Ira and take another gun.
Weapons and items should only get permanently damaged if hit by explosives or bullets or something. Alien spit would make this even more likely. Common fire already decreases the gun's status, perm damage would just be a bit too harsh there.
Sandrograpple checks Wuddawuddawaitasecond. You mean like... ninja kind of shit? Awh damn, son. You is makin' my day, nigger! How about reducing available APs if failed an added hand to hand check (executed at the start of a turn) when standing next to a melee fighter? Makes running away harder. What about performing such a check with a martial artist around upon receiving a movement order. If it fails, sucks up APs and leaves person in place. Running far away is more likely than just moving a tile. That means enemies are less likely to just step back a tile and shoot the kung fu king in the head (see close combat penalty for firing a gun), whereas they're allowed to run away like mad and not turn around. Not only is this relevant gameplay-wise, but also pretty natural. If you're wrestling with some trimmed Asian fist-through-brick monk and just step away 3 steps, he will definitely follow you and step on your head. Why would he wait there? On the other hand, if you're just using all your force to make a dash forward and run as fast as you can without turning around, it's a matter of who's faster. If you get slower, trying to turn around and take aim, he'll use the time to take a dive into your face. Remember: Asians are evil.
By the way, higher chance of smashing an enemy away from you if you're a leet kung fu pro? I just love that animation, made me freak out once when I snuck behind an enemy guard, did my jedi force spin kick to the head and just wiped the fucker off this world in one elite blow, knocking him backwards a tile, leaving him in a blood patch. Far cooler than just seeing him collapse.
[Updated on: Thu, 22 July 2010 22:51] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257227]
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Fri, 23 July 2010 00:14
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| Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars |
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LootFraggOh, I love it, like almost always. But I think 3 levels are a bit too few. Medical for example. I know it's hard to make more skill levels if they don't only multiply values like +20% speed, +40% speed...,
Exactly. That's what I want to avoid.
LootFraggMedical:
0 : ... 1:...2:...10:....
Well if you mixup skill traits with this, then it can go to 10th level, yeah. But consider that you would have to have specialized trait for every profficiency and vice versa. And we don't have that, and as I said.. let's leave what I was working on the past era(the traits) alone for now. The traits are good. You can be damn (Kung Fu + Jiu Jitsu + Muai Thai) master, or not?! You can. Enjoy it. If you wnat me to throw everything I've done so far away... well.. then you shall never see me here again, I promise. 
LootFraggThis is very detailed, I agree. Make it less, I don't mind, but I just don't want such a skill to consist of 3 levels only. Less levels means more importance, but also far higher thresholds. I can either help a great deal or I'm a loser.
Now I am going to say something important: Look at the concept as a whole..
Look at it again. I had a good reason to make only 3 levels. Medical can be made more complicated, but others hardly. This is because the game mechanics around medical care provide more possibilities to play with. Which is mostly because of doctor trait by now.
I would only think about 3 or 4 levels, no more. 4 levels mean zero level + 3 levels of actual knowledge - simply three Es - elegant, efficient, ... ya know.
The point was to bring some other system into the game. We have Exp level, attributes which raise when doing things, traits which are chosen at the beginning as specialization, and this is something else. The higher threshholds can be nice. You actually value your one dot in Stealth, because you can move smoothly. This is similar to traits. If you make it from 1-10 you get close to the way: " what level of medical this merc has? Bah, who cares, something between 1 and 5." The differences between levels, the threshholds can be actually very good.
As said, I could imagine 4 levels, maybe. It still brings troubles. Also imagine the graphical representation: not number, but a coloured/empty dots aside the proficiency names.
Simplicity is the mother of genius.
LootFraggAlso, more game mechanics stuff... if I was gay and you were a woman - it would still be a good idea... I don't even drink, wtf!
Heh.. uh.. what the hell are you smoking?
LootFraggSandroThat I like it still does not mean I'll do it, so easy... I can send you pictures of cute kitten I took in Ireland. Then I can tell you what could happen to these innocent beings if you don't do it. But I won't. Because you will comply. I'm just kidding of course. Or am I? DO IT! No pressure. Not if you don't like kitten anyway. Rofl.
Haha.. I have actually six cats in the house. Three kittens are just now trying to annihilate this entire room.
LootFraggSandro(almost) permanent damages to items How about a sort of mechanical surgery?
That's what I meant. I designed some concept of enhanced repairing some ages ago.
LootFraggSandrograpple checks Wuddawuddawaitasecond. You mean like... ninja kind of shit?
Yeah. Headrock did a nice design for it. In fact pretty the same as my own idea.
LootFragg Remember: Asians are evil.
Tell me about it.
LootFraggI just love that animation, made me freak out once when I snuck behind an enemy guard, did my jedi force spin kick to the head and just wiped the fucker off this world in one elite blow, knocking him backwards a tile, leaving him in a blood patch.
Yeah, I love it too. ... and I just did it right now. If you kill a soldier as martial artist/HtH with punch, he falls back (if not wall there or something).
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257263]
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Fri, 23 July 2010 15:28
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| Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008
Location: Mars |
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Nobody (except LootFragg) commented on the new merc skills system.. although it somehow don't let me sleep since the idea struck me.. I tried to improve the concept by increasing the number of proficiency levels to 4 (0-3).
STOMP v2 ?What about this: Separate 0-100 scaled attributes from less important attributes. Make the less important attributes based on something like "profficiency" levels. Probably expand the remaining 0-100 scale based attributes.
One problem still is, that certain attributes/skills are incomparable with others concerning their importance - like medical vs marksmanship. Why not to create another group of merc properties?
----------------------------------------------------
"Soldier's composition"
----------------------------------------------------
---- Experience: ----
Level 1-10
----------------------------------------------------
---- Attributes: ----
Health 0-100
Strength 0-100
Agility 0-100
Dexterity 0-100
Perception 0-100 (Focus, good eyes, ears; affects shooting, interrupts, lot of things))
Wisdom 0-100
Marksmanship 0-100
Leadership 0-100
---- Can be profficient at: ----
Medical 0-3
Explosives 0-3
Lockpicking 0-3
Repairing 0-3
Stealth 0-3
Driving 0-3
Survival 0-3
Discipline 0-3
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
Explanation of profficiencies:
--------------------------------
Medical:
0 : Cannot bandage or doctor, an attempt more likely ends in harming the victim, or draining the medical kit pointlessly
1 : Can bandage (not dying) mercs, but not self, mediocre speed, bandaging cost certain amount of energy, a tiny chance to hurt the patient on the process
2 : Can bandage anyone, even dying soldiers and self, good speed, bandaging also returns some energy to the patient, can perform doctoring assignment, but it's exhausting
3 : Improved bandaging, improved doctoring assignment which do not cost so much energy, can do doctoring at hospital facility
Explosives:
0 : Handling explosives usually reslutls in failure or detonation (except grenades, but there is penalty for them too)
1 : Can set simple mines, throw grenades normally
2 : Can place mines and bombs normally (door bombs included), can attach detonators (with penalty)
3 : Can disarm bombs and mines, can create detonators from nightwatches and wires, no penalties when handling explosives
Lockpicking:
0 : Cannot lockpick anything at all, only examine doors for traps
1 : Can lockpick low level doors, but not electronic locks, lockpicking makes a lot of noise and costs some energy
2 : Can lockpick any non-electronic locks (no noise, no energy cost)
3 : Can untrap doors, lockpicking gets better, can unlock electronic locks
Repairing:
0 : Cannot repair items at all, an attempt results in damaging the item even more
1 : Can only repair (non-electronic) items with 60+% status to 90% status, with repair difficulty -1 or easier, slow speed
2 : can repair items with 30+% status to 95%, with repair difficulty not under -4, electronic items are very slow to repair, otherwise normal speed
3 : can repair items on any status to 100%, also vehicles, can merge items, fast speed
Stealth:
0 : Cannot move silently, camouflage has 50% effect, moving reduces camo/cover effectiveness drastically, makes more noise overally
1 : Can move silently with a penalty, and it drains more enrgy, camo has 70% effect, movement reduces camo/cover effect a lot, makes normal noise, but certain actions are still very loud(running, climbing on/off roofs, jumping fences, swimming etc)
2 : Silent movement is at normal (except running), cost normal energy, camo effectiveness 90%, movement still reduces camo/cover effectiveness significally
3 : Can kill completely silently (bare hands/knife), camo effectiveness full, cover bonus, movement reduces camo/cover effectiveness only a bit, can run silently
Driving:
0 : Cannot drive vehicles (needs different merc with Driving)
1 : Can drive at mediocre speed, has a chance to damage the car sometimes, cannot drive offroad
2 : Can drive normally, although if driving off road the car is damaged from time to time
3 : Can pilot helicopter (muhaha), and everything drivable, even tanks, speed bonus, no vehicle damaging
Survival:
0 : Loses a lot more energy when traveling outside cities, sometimes get even slightly hurt, can regain energy only to 60% status if sleeping in the wilderness
1 : Loses less energy when travelling outside the cities, can regain energy only to 75% if sleeping outside
2 : Loses energy normally when travelling, can only regain energy to 90% if sleeping outside
3 : Can regain full energy, also helps others with lesser Survival in the squad (reduces slightly their penalties)
Discipline:
0 : Enemy shooting scares the shit out of you - suppression is very effective on you, morale cannot go higher than 70%, all negative features of your personality and disability have higher effect, if hated merc in the squad, you screw everything up
1 : Suppression has still high effect for you (but not as with zero Discipline), morale can go to 85%, negative features of your character have normal effect
2 : Normal suppression effect, morale can go to 100%, practicing/student assignments go faster
3 : Has suppression tolerance bonus, all positive features of your character are higher, bonus to training militia
----------------------------------------------
---- Effects of Skill Traits: ----
Generaly Skill Traits would remain almost the same, or at least their core. Certain proficiencies would get bonus from Skill Traits, and certain Skill Traits would have minimal proficiencies to be picked up (minimal requirements).
Paramedics need Medical at least 2, Doctors at least 3..
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---- Gainig proficiencies: ----
The best way I have in mind, of how to gain proficiency is to learn them directly in the game at certain Facilities. But for that, you would need a Free Proficiency Point which you gain every time you level up. Some free proficiency points you gain at the merc creation of course. You could also gain proficiency points for completing certain quests!
Example:
You have Level 1 merc. He has 5 points in proficiencies - let's say: 2 Explosives, 1 Discipline, 1 Survival, 1 Stealth. We would like to obtain Explosives proficiency of 3, but on this time, we have no "free points", so even if we find the apropriate Facility which can give us the desired proficiency, we cannot learn it (we do not have the learning capacity for it now).
Now we gained a level, becoming level 2 merc. To our Free points, one point is added. Now we could use the point to learn a proficiency. So we put ourself to the Facility and choose "Improve Explosives Proficiency". After a certain time, we get a message, that we gained the proficiency level, and the assignment is disallowed again.
We gain another point at level 2,3,4,5.. then two points at level 6+. It's an example, the amount would be externalized.
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Well, of course the game mechanics would have to be rebalanced. This is a very rough concept, just what came to my mind now. There could be more levels of proficiencies.. or not.
If anyone would like this and be enthusiastic enough.. All this is within my capabilities. I would need help though. Mainly it would have to be worked to a very good concept.
However I still like the version with 3 levels (0-1-2), as it is more tidy, the points are more valuable and significant. See.. with this, we actually get an unique system, where "learn-through-doing" (attributes) is together with "select-class-and-go" (skill traits) and "choose-path-on-the-run" (proficiencies).
It is also not entirely unlogical, because you actually spend time to learn the proficiencies at specific places, not achiving them instantly.
I like it. More and more. And I am getting furious about it. Everyone could have his piece of cheese this way. Without completely braking the skill traits. And it also solves the unbalance problems in attributes.
We could add more proficiencies (Weapon Knowledge - ability to work with attachments; speed of weapons status decreasing in our hands; EDB values precision?; whatever).
Anyway, some brains needed. I shall open a new thread for this in the case.
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257268]
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Fri, 23 July 2010 16:31
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Grenade talk: The problem about grenades is the space they use in your LBE gear. You can waste lots of bullets if you want, but you can always empty your grenade belt far quicker. Especially canister type throwables, like smoke grenades, consume lots of space and are especially heavy. The effect of 'splosives and gas bombs can't be denied, but their efficiency is low. By the way, that's pretty much how it's supposed to be. They pack a punch, but you can't use them too often.
What's a minor, daddy?: However, when talking about major and minor traits, it shouldn't matter that much how often a merc uses a weapon type. Armies train sharpshooters, even though most of the time it's all about automatic rifles and machine guns. That doesn't or shouldn't mean "Sniper" becomes a minor trait. Until now, major traits were different from minor traits by having that second "specialization" point, being able to rank up to expert. This is what one should consider when talking about what trait becomes what. It's pretty pointless to specialize in throwing grenades or teaching (considering the game). On the other hand, only firing sniper rifles is plausible. Without adding my personal opinion, think of the plausibility of specializing in melee combat rather than insisting that this game is about firearms.
Sandro's proficiencies: I will leave out my personal opinion and only write down what the voice in my head is telling me. Except for the "burn everything" stuff. Great Sandro, I am suggesting different level limits among those proficiencies. This applies only if you have trouble balancing them out. Let's say, you've got 3 points and can opt to either go the medical way or choose driving and let's assume I, that means, without any personal opinion, would objectively choose to become a medic because I would probably think it's more useful. And if you want to balance these "sub-traits" against each other and do not decide on either decreasing a medic's value or adding impossible boosts to the other categories (like no gas usage and three times the speed, vehicles can be called to the sector like in Knight Rider), then you might allow only 2 points for driving skills and increase the number of points needed to excel in one category that might be a bit too dominating. In that case I, without any personal view, would think more about either picking 3 of 4 medical points or spending 2 on perfect driving and choosing something else that is considered to be a bit minor.
Well, I know you want them all to have an equal amount of potential points, because it looks better, I'm not arguing here. DO NOT take this the wrong way. I'm trying to be supportive.
Sandroadd more proficiencies Hi, my name is John Kulba, I'm stranded in this goddamn bloody third world country. Please take me to Drassen and I'll effing teach you how to handle a high caliber pistol like those I've got back home. Yeehaw! --- Do you really want to spend time with this man and acquire one point of RECOIL CONTROL?
Boy, I sure like that.
On my mind: Even if Lord Sandro doesn't like me anymore (
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257271]
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Fri, 23 July 2010 17:18
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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There it is again, the realism talk. I'll join in. First of all, the game doesn't calculate if a knife hits the target with the tip (or in which angle or if the grip has got enough force to knock out the target) and it's by far harder to actually pierce a target than just to roughly hit it. Shuriken don't go in there as deep as flying daggers do, but this doesn't get calculated either. If you hit the neck with a throwing knife, you're not always disabling the nervous system by cutting through the spine or causing shock. In case you cut through one main artery, the blood loss might immediately kill the victim, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Pulling the trigger when hit doesn't get simulated either. The game doesn't calculate if your target ducks away after seeing you pull a throwing knife and only pulling up the shoulders and instinctively protecting the neck lessens most damage dealt even when it hits the neck (muscle contraction and more skin and tissue mass around the neck, like biological armour). Almost missing the neck and only scratching the skin wouldn't kill a soldier, while still causing blood loss.
I'm always telling everybody I want the game to be intuitive, not realistic. Hitting the head and not dealing damage isn't intuitive, neither is killing everything with shuriken. Ninjas mainly used throwing stars to wound opponents and distract them for a second so they could attack them with less risk of being killed by those mostly well-trained and well-equipped adversaries. For ranged killing they used bows and arrows. Everybody has a different perception of how well weapons should perform and since I like Hollywood action movies in which a throwing knife always eradicates a single foe, I agree throwing knives should deal a horrific amount of damage and be able to kill on a single blow. But not always. The game is pretty simple, there are only few hit zones and no calculation of vital organs and actual bodily functions. That's good. Most things get simulated in one way or another and only having a chance to kill is one of these simulations. Bullets deal more or less damage, which simulates hitting critical spots or only piercing tissue. Throwing knives shouldn't be calculated differently. You might kill or maybe you're unlucky and it didn't work out like intended. Everything inside a certain scale. Not dealing any damage at all sucks of course, so I would be against that as well.
[Updated on: Fri, 23 July 2010 17:19] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: STOMP v1.1 Release !!![message #257272]
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Fri, 23 July 2010 17:19
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| Forral |
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Messages:71
Registered:May 2009
Location: Sweden |
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Something I find odd is that you've kept Leadership intact when you've added Discipline, which essentially influences the same stuff. They both deal with the training of militia and the teaching of students, as well as morale supression tolerance. I suggest a bit of a reshuffling to how the Leadership and Discipline are are handled in order to keep their purposes unique; or simply removing one of them.
Discipline could be shifted to the place of Leadership, becoming a primary attribute, and be given the sole purpose of governing your resistance to supression. I argue that supression tolerance is an important enough factor on its own to warrant picking over other primary attributes, depending on the role of the character. Also, such tolerance could be easily effected by your level of Discipline, and your level of Discipline could be easily influenced by how much you're getting shot at or around. So the characters' primary attribute Discipline would gain points towards progression through combat solely, and also only be of use in combat.
When Leadership is stripped of the Tolerance influencing factor and shifted to become a simple 3 point profiency, the label Leadership is no longer exactly apt. Instead it would need its name changed to something more fitting for a trait that handles only training, such as Training or Instruction. This proficiency could handle more uniformly with the other proficiencies, in that it's either "purchased" at character creation, or trained at a suitable facility when the character has recieved extra points. Should Leadership keep its name, it could also influence tolerance of nearby characters in combat, giving the proficiency something of a bridge towards Discipline but never fully crossing over into its territory.
In both cases we're taking a step away from the militia training grinding on the strategical map as a viable option for improving your proficiency/attribute.
Without changes such as the ones I suggested above however, I don't think there's anything to warrant the existance of both Discipline and Leadership.
Edit: If you absolutely wanted to have eight different proficiences, and Discipline just happened to pop up into your head to fill a slot. I suggest an alternative to all of the above: A Swimming proficiency. With three levels of Proficiency it could influence how well your character handles in water. I suggested similiar stuff in the past as a trait, but it works just as well as a proficiency.
Swimming:
0: Character loses energy quickly while in water and the AP cost of swimming is increased.
1: Character handles now normally in water
2: Character loses energy more slowly while in water and the AP cost of swimming is decreased.
3: Character gains concealment bonuses in water and makes less noise while swimming + level 2 benefits.
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