Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)
| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #286021]
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Sat, 09 July 2011 13:33 
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 Off_Topic |
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Messages:997
Registered:January 2009 |
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#All Mercs now have their original 1.12 traits.
#STOMP traits revised to match original traits as closely as possible. Some Mercs have extra traits to make use of STOMP.
In some cases i used Demo instead of Throwing as this is how Grenades are linked now.
Raven and Lynx are the only AIM Mercs with Scouting as it is a very powerful trait. There are also 1 Merc & 1 RPC with this trait.
Because some traits have been made minor, a few Mercs like Igor have been given another trait. All STOMP traits have been used.
Electronics is a funny trait to translate into STOMP:
Old Trait: Improves chances (+15) of modifying/assembling electronics, picking electronic locks and disarming electronic traps, and attaching remote detonators.
So for some it means DEMO while for others it means Tech.
#All WF Mercs have been given their proper starting gear, minus the grenades and kevlar leggings etc...
#Every Merc has their 1.12 gear now, select *Kit 2 if you would like to experience how JA was originally released.
*Static,MD, & Spider kept their 1.12 gear, so for them it is Kit 1.
Kit 1 is their 1.13 gear. K2&3 are normally a choice of weapons/equipment etc... K5 is aimed at the Mid-Late game, but that's not to say you can't sacrifice manpower for equipment.
#All the 1.13 added weapons & equipment have had 100% condition replaced with how they would have shipped in 1.12 along with other minor fixes.
E.G. Malice MAT-49 100%->87%
#All Mercs now have 5 Kit to choose from.
#Corrected the Wildfire Mercs Bios.
LockNLoad!!
[color:#FF0000]
Installation: Extract Folder, then copy the Data-1.13 Folder into your JA2 folder overwriting everything.
This has been designed for use with the official release 4552.[/color]
*****
Change Log:
JA2v3.11.1
JA2v3.11.2
Added Kits for Buzz, Len, & Trevor.
Monk: Can't have 3 Major traits, so instead of Ranger/Auto he has Hunter/Auto Weapons + Camokit in gear.
Raider: Now has Squad Leader Trait, i changed it from Hunter now that Monk & *Igor have Hunter trait.
*Stealth is now a minor trait, to make up for it i gave him Hunter.
Added missing rig to Meltdown K3
Removed R-Holster from Steroid K4
!Should have said this in first post, i have changed LEN back to not being able to learn!
JA2v3.11.3
Added Kits for Lynx, Scope.
Fixed Grace's no. of throwing knifes from 98->1
While adding Lynx' & Scope's gear i noticed that Lynx had Marksman as a STOMP trait, but he is priced right beside Scope on the AIM site who also has Marksman. There were only 3 Mercs with the this trait, and he is a good candidate for it, so he now has the Scouting trait. This means there are 4 Mercs altogether who have this trait, two of whom are AIM Mercs.
JA2v3.11.4
Added Gear for Ivan.
Changed Ivan's Athletic trait -> Body Building to differentiate between him and Buzz. Also helps with those big LMG's!
JA2v3.11.5
Added Gear for Nails, Static, Monk, Laura, Rudolf, Shadow, Reaper, Scully & Magic.
Removed 1st aid from Grace.
LockNLoad!
Restored Grace to Throwing Expert (old) Throwing/Demo (STOMP)
Added final Mercs: Grace, Brain, Lucky, Henning, & Gus.
So now EVERY Merc has 5 starting kits to choose from.
If you play this and notice a mistake or have a better idea for a Kit drop me a pm!
This is the final version of this, there were a few instances of missing Holsters, LBE, etc.. but they should be all fixed now.
I've had a few PMS about the kits, so just to clarify:
Kit 1 is the equipment assigned to them in 1.13. I only adjusted their condition and corrected a few errors, like Cliff having the wrong shotgun ammo & Dr.Q having a holster etc...
Kit 2 is their original 1.12 gear, the stuff they had when the game was 1st released.
I didn't put this together, so any suggestions can be forwarded to Sirtech. Their complaints office is open between 6AM - 8AM every Monday morning.
K2 & K3 vary between different ammo/equipment based on skills or stats/guns with different qualities.
I.E. Some Mercs with poor mechanical skill may have a more reliable gun to choose from, but with less ammo or a less common calibre.
Why does Grunty have a Toolbox?
He doesn't have Tech skills, but he has a decent Mech level, but that's not to say the toolbox is in perfect condition.
Any specialised items are subject to the Merc's lvl, i tried to create a sense of progression from the cheaper Mercs upwards. So even though Igor may have a Flash Suppressor, it won't be in the same condition as Dr. Q's.
Example's Gear 3 is cheaper than Gear 2
There isn't a cheapest to dearest structure in place, it was designed more around variety than price. There are normally Pros/Cons to each Kit.
Kit 5 is the only kit with a price modifier because it contains items above the Merc's starting lvl, so you will pay double the price it you want it. It is aimed at the mid-late game when you want to hire Mercs with better equipment.
Or if you want to sacrifice Manpower for Firepower in the beginning. A side-effect of this is that those playing novice have the option to make life easier for themselves if they so choose.
I always found i hired Merc's without gear after day 1 because i could equip them with better equipment, now if you have the cash, their equipment may just be that little bit more appealing.
Why doesn't x have y item?
There were plenty of times when i wanted to give a cool gun or perfect item to specific Mercs, but in the interest of gameplay, i left them out. The cooler LBE etc... were intentionally left out so as not to spoil the fun of buying them in game.
I was hoping for standardised kits
It would have been easier for me if i had done it that way, but variety is the spice of life. There should be enough subtle differences between every Kit to find something close to what you're looking for. There's nearly 250 Kits to choose form now.
X doesn't have armour in Kit y
I toned this down because people didn't like it, but there are still examples of Mercs "trading" a helmet or something else for a better gun/equipment etc...
Otherwise Kit 1 in most cases would be obsolete.
LockNLoad!
Thanks to Cell and PasHancock for all suggestions and help.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 July 2011 03:50] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #286316]
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Tue, 12 July 2011 04:34 
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:997
Registered:January 2009 |
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Cool, i'll polish it up and give you a shout when i'm sure there are no mistakes, there were a lot of items, so i'm sure one or two got mixed up.
This is the final version of this, there were a few instances of missing Holsters, LBE, etc.. but they should be all fixed now.
I've had a few PMS about the kits, so just to clarify:
Kit 1 is the equipment assigned to them in 1.13. I only adjusted their condition and corrected a few errors, like Cliff having the wrong shotgun ammo & Dr.Q having a holster etc...
Kit 2 is their original 1.12 gear, the stuff they had when the game was 1st released.
I didn't put this together, so any suggestions can be forwarded to Sirtech. Their complaints office is open between 6AM - 8AM every Monday morning.
K2 & K3 vary between different ammo/equipment based on skills or stats/guns with different qualities.
I.E. Some Mercs with poor mechanical skill may have a more reliable gun to choose from, but with less ammo or a less common calibre.
Why does Grunty have a Toolbox?
He doesn't have Tech skills, but he has a decent Mech level, but that's not to say the toolbox is in perfect condition.
Any specialised items are subject to the Merc's lvl, i tried to create a sense of progression from the cheaper Mercs upwards. So even though Igor may have a Flash Suppressor, it won't be in the same condition as Dr. Q's.
Example's Gear 3 is cheaper than Gear 2
There isn't a cheapest to dearest structure in place, it was designed more around variety than price. There are normally Pros/Cons to each Kit.
Kit 5 is the only kit with a price modifier because it contains items above the Merc's starting lvl, so you will pay double the price it you want it. It is aimed at the mid-late game when you want to hire Mercs with better equipment.
Or if you want to sacrifice Manpower for Firepower in the beginning. A side-effect of this is that those playing novice have the option to make life easier for themselves if they so choose.
I always found i hired Merc's without gear after day 1 because i could equip them with better equipment, now if you have the cash, their equipment may just be that little bit more appealing.
Why doesn't x have y item?
There were plenty of times when i wanted to give a cool gun or perfect item to specific Mercs, but in the interest of gameplay, i left them out. The cooler LBE etc... were intentionally left out so as not to spoil the fun of buying them in game.
I was hoping for standardised kits
It would have been easier for me if i had done it that way, but variety is the spice of life. There should be enough subtle differences between every Kit to find something close to what you're looking for. There's nearly 250 Kits to choose from now.
X doesn't have armour in Kit Y
I toned this down because people didn't like it, but there are still examples of Mercs "trading" a helmet or something else for a better gun/equipment etc...
Otherwise Kit 1 in most cases would be obsolete.
LockNLoad!
[Updated on: Tue, 19 July 2011 03:51] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287488]
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Sun, 24 July 2011 12:55
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| scienter |
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Messages:4
Registered:July 2011 |
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I had a few concerns and comments about how the traits have been reassigned in the rebalance.
I very much appreciate the work both Sandro and Off_Topic have done to improve the game. My comments are meant not as criticism. I am looking to generating discussion to improve balance.
I have 2 major concerns. They relate to the Paramedic/Doctor trait and the Scouting trait. Mapping the Para/Doc trait to mercs isn't too hard but there are a few situations where I feel the application has been inconsistent. Scouting is new and very powerful. Reducing the number of mercs that have it is good but I'm not sure the mercs who have it now are the only ones who should or are the ones that should.
I noticed that Danny is the only full blown doctor. I'm sure he should be but why is he the only one? Others like Vince and Spider have much higher MED numbers. And Dr. Q still doesn't have any ability to repair stats. Dr. Q only is one mark lower than Danny and isn't even a Paramedic.
The Scout trait is trickier. A lot of mercs were given this trait. With the rebalance, only a few have it. Raven and Lynx(why did they lose their Marksman traits? their bios seem to indicate they should have them.) have them but I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind why they have them. Carlos is an excellent candidate for Scouting. But why don't the other locals have it? Dimitri and Miguel should have it too if Carlos has it because he is a local.
I understand that some of these choices are influenced by the limit of major/minor traits but I wonder if the current choices 'restore' the old traits as well as they could.
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Civilian
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287490]
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Sun, 24 July 2011 13:14
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:997
Registered:January 2009 |
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Quote:I have 2 major concerns. They relate to the Paramedic/Doctor trait and the Scouting trait. Mapping the Para/Doc trait to mercs isn't too hard but there are a few situations where I feel the application has been inconsistent. Scouting is new and very powerful. Reducing the number of mercs that have it is good but I'm not sure the mercs who have it now are the only ones who should or are the ones that should.
Hi Scienter, welcome to the pit. I did my best to replicate the old traits, while at the same time including the best of the new traits. They are two different approaches, so it is not possible to match them perfectly, there had to be some compromises.
Quote:
I noticed that Danny is the only full blown doctor. I'm sure he should be but why is he the only one? Others like Vince and Spider have much higher MED numbers. And Dr. Q still doesn't have any ability to repair stats. Dr. Q only is one mark lower than Danny and isn't even a Paramedic.
Based on price, i think it makes sense that Danny is the only full blown doctor, why hire him if you get the same deal with Spider 0r MD?
Dr.Q lost out to his Martial Arts Trait, It doesn't mean he can't be hired as a Medic, it just means that he is more combat orientated. Danny was suitable because of his price and the fact he only had one "Old Trait" to begin with, most other "Medics" had 2+ traits. To counteract this, Cliff got the Paramedic trait, even though in vanilla he had not traits.
Quote:The Scout trait is trickier. A lot of mercs were given this trait. With the rebalance, only a few have it. Raven and Lynx(why did they lose their Marksman traits? their bios seem to indicate they should have them.) have them but I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind why they have them. Carlos is an excellent candidate for Scouting. But why don't the other locals have it? Dimitri and Miguel should have it too if Carlos has it because he is a local.
In Lynx' case, he is beside Scope(Marksman) on the AIM roster, so it adds more variety if he has the "Scouting" trait, besides, they still get a bonus to scoped weapons (* +10 to effective sight range with scopes on weapons). Again price/game balance came into Raven's scouting ability along with her bio/stats.
As to why other locals don't have the Scouting trait, it's because of balance again, if all the locals had the scouting trait, it would mean your team never got ambushed.
The way it is now, you can have a max of four Mercs with the scouting trait, so theoretically you could split your party into four groups with a scout included, but not from the very start of the game.
I hope this answers your questions.
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287542]
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Mon, 25 July 2011 07:46
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| scienter |
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Messages:4
Registered:July 2011 |
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Hi. Thanks for the warm welcome.
Quote:
Based on price, i think it makes sense that Danny is the only full blown doctor, why hire him if you get the same deal with Spider 0r MD?
I've always thought Danny's price had to do with his 99 AGI. He is a properly useful fighting merc. His 99 AGI points ties him with Magic and he will have his full APs right when hired. If I hire some of the other 'doctors' I will end up with combat deadweight. Vince, MD, Spider and Cliff all have terrible AGI scores and often terrible DEX scores as well and are nowhere close to their max APs. They are often liabilities in a fight. I have always considered this to be why Danny had a price premium.
Quote:
Dr.Q lost out to his Martial Arts Trait, It doesn't mean he can't be hired as a Medic, it just means that he is more combat orientated. Danny was suitable because of his price and the fact he only had one "Old Trait" to begin with, most other "Medics" had 2+ traits. To counteract this, Cliff got the Paramedic trait, even though in vanilla he had not traits.
Dr. Q costs about as much as Danny. I believe his price was intended to reflect both his medical ability and his combat abilities. There might not be an easy way to get Dr. Q right with how STOMP allows for 2 Majors and 1 Minor (or up to 3 Minors) but I do not consider Dr. Q appropriate for the medic slot on a team. He can't repair lost attribute points. This weakness is major. And he is slower at healing (minor weakness). If he is your medic and some other guy takes 23 points to AGI, you have to hire a 'real' doctor or fire the merc. I don't have an elegant solution to Dr. Q. He really just needs 4 traits to satisfy his skills. Or STOMP needs to be tweaked so H2H is not the weaker version of MA.
The thing is, I find it hard to consider hiring anyone BUT Danny as a medic at this point. As soon as his MRK bumps up, he is fairly close to a merc like Shadow. And he is the best doctor. If I recall, he had his 99 AGI nerfed for a while for balance.
Quote:
In Lynx' case, he is beside Scope(Marksman) on the AIM roster, so it adds more variety if he has the "Scouting" trait, besides, they still get a bonus to scoped weapons (* +10 to effective sight range with scopes on weapons). Again price/game balance came into Raven's scouting ability along with her bio/stats.
As to why other locals don't have the Scouting trait, it's because of balance again, if all the locals had the scouting trait, it would mean your team never got ambushed.
The way it is now, you can have a max of four Mercs with the scouting trait, so theoretically you could split your party into four groups with a scout included, but not from the very start of the game.
I suspect Sandro did the same thing when he was assigning STOMP traits initially. I think he was changing things around a bit and giving some guys some traits for balance and variety. And I don't think he did a bad job. But I'm not sure that is the same as the goal of 'restoring old traits'. If the goal is to get the mercs as close as possible to who they were before STOMP (and I understand this as keeping the spirit of the character the same), then I am concerned that some of the choices with balancing the traits are not restoring the characters. Instead, it seems to be a different balance but at the same time, it doesn't seem to restore the characters as well as I would have hoped.
And that it is a different balance is fine and all. My goal is to just open up some discussion about what LockNLoad! aims to do and how well it has achieved its goals.
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Civilian
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287552]
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Mon, 25 July 2011 12:17
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:997
Registered:January 2009 |
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I find your argument flawed Scienter, you are ignoring the other attributes that may influence your choice of Medic:
Danny: [color:#FF0000]14,000 [/color]Ambi, Doctor
[color:#33FF33]Hlth.99[/color] Str.73 [color:#33FF33]Agi.99[/color] Dex. 79 Wis.91 Mrk.61 [color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] Lead.10 Med.88 Mech.12 Exp.3
Dr. Q: 10,000 Marital Arts, N.Ops (87)
[color:#FFFF00]Hlth.88[/color] Str.73 Agi.92 [color:#33FF33]Dex.81[/color] Wis.91 [color:#FF0000]Mrk.60[/color] [color:#33FF33]Expl.20[/color] [color:#33FF33]Lead.26[/color] [color:#33FF33]Med.97[/color] [color:#33FF33]Mech.19[/color] Exp.3
Spider: 8,000 N.Ops, Stealth, Para (94)
Hlth.81 [color:#FF0000]Str.68[/color] [color:#FF0000]Agi.56[/color] [color:#FF0000]Dex.76[/color][color:#FF0000] Wis.90 [/color][color:#33FF33]Mrk.70 [/color][color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] Lead.16 Med.94 [color:#FF0000]Mech.0[/color] Exp.1
MD: [color:#33FF33]5,400[/color] Teaching, Melee, Para (80)
[color:#FF0000]Hlth.72[/color] [color:#33FF33]Str.76[/color] Agi.62 Dex.78 [color:#33FF33]Wis.94[/color] Mrk.66 [color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] [color:#FF0000]Lead.4[/color] [color:#FF0000]Med.80[/color] Mech.7 Exp.1
On top of attributes, you also have their unique skill set, Dr.Q is the only Martial Arts/N.Ops expert.
Spider is a Stealthy/N.Ops, MD's High wisdom lvl. 1 means he can improve a lot. You may also just want a medic that can teach/stab someone.
So i don't think it's fair to say that there is no choice when it comes to hiring a medic, just variety. And you pay 4,000 more for Danny's services over Dr. Q's.
Don't get me started on Cliff, because his strength lies in how skilled he is in several fields. Maybe it makes Danny more desirable because he has the Doctor trait, but that doesn't remove the need for a balanced team at the beginning of the game. I'd say with a poll, you'd find most people opt for no medic (hire Ira), or they hire Fox, Spider, MD for various reasons.
Quote:
I suspect Sandro did the same thing when he was assigning STOMP traits initially. I think he was changing things around a bit and giving some guys some traits for balance and variety. And I don't think he did a bad job. But I'm not sure that is the same as the goal of 'restoring old traits'. If the goal is to get the mercs as close as possible to who they were before STOMP (and I understand this as keeping the spirit of the character the same), then I am concerned that some of the choices with balancing the traits are not restoring the characters. Instead, it seems to be a different balance but at the same time, it doesn't seem to restore the characters as well as I would have hoped.
I think you'll find that every Merc has their original traits, so don't confuse the issue. If you find a Merc without their original traits, or a close substitute (Vicki=Demo not Throwing because of grenades) i'll admit that i failed in 'restoring old traits'.
How is giving Lynx 'Scouting' instead of 'Marksman' cause for concern? It's a trait he never had, it just makes more sense game-playwise, there was ever only one marksman (sniper) available to hire at AIM, Reaper, now Scope, Rudolf, & Buns have marksman. Lynx & Raven have Scouting because as i said, it suits their price/bios/skillset & there is a theme going with Lynx, Raven, & Cougar being scouts.
I would have preferred if you had aired your concerns a few weeks ago Scienter, it's a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. The reason Dr.Q does not have Para, one of your concerns about 'restoring old traits' is because old traits took precedence over new ones.
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287647]
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Tue, 26 July 2011 02:25
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| scienter |
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Messages:4
Registered:July 2011 |
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Off_TopicI find your argument flawed Scienter, you are ignoring the other attributes that may influence your choice of Medic:
Danny: [color:#FF0000]14,000 [/color]Ambi, Doctor
[color:#33FF33]Hlth.99[/color] Str.73 [color:#33FF33]Agi.99[/color] Dex. 79 Wis.91 Mrk.61 [color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] Lead.10 Med.88 Mech.12 Exp.3
Dr. Q: 10,000 Marital Arts, N.Ops (87)
[color:#FFFF00]Hlth.88[/color] Str.73 Agi.92 [color:#33FF33]Dex.81[/color] Wis.91 [color:#FF0000]Mrk.60[/color] [color:#33FF33]Expl.20[/color] [color:#33FF33]Lead.26[/color] [color:#33FF33]Med.97[/color] [color:#33FF33]Mech.19[/color] Exp.3
Spider: 8,000 N.Ops, Stealth, Para (94)
Hlth.81 [color:#FF0000]Str.68[/color] [color:#FF0000]Agi.56[/color] [color:#FF0000]Dex.76[/color][color:#FF0000] Wis.90 [/color][color:#33FF33]Mrk.70 [/color][color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] Lead.16 Med.94 [color:#FF0000]Mech.0[/color] Exp.1
MD: [color:#33FF33]5,400[/color] Teaching, Melee, Para (80)
[color:#FF0000]Hlth.72[/color] [color:#33FF33]Str.76[/color] Agi.62 Dex.78 [color:#33FF33]Wis.94[/color] Mrk.66 [color:#FF0000]Expl.0[/color] [color:#FF0000]Lead.4[/color] [color:#FF0000]Med.80[/color] Mech.7 Exp.1
On top of attributes, you also have their unique skill set, Dr.Q is the only Martial Arts/N.Ops expert.
Spider is a Stealthy/N.Ops, MD's High wisdom lvl. 1 means he can improve a lot. You may also just want a medic that can teach/stab someone.
So i don't think it's fair to say that there is no choice when it comes to hiring a medic, just variety. And you pay 4,000 more for Danny's services over Dr. Q's.
I never meant to imply that there is no choice to medics. What I mean is that Danny seems to be such a strong choice and value that the other choices do not appear desirable. Obviously, if you need NightOps then the choice is limited to Spider or Q(if you don't need to restore lost stats). I don't think I am ignoring the other factors. I am just heavily weighing fighting ability and doctoring ability. And I don't think that is inappropriate to weigh those 2 factors heavily for this game.
And the thing about high WIS is that it is good for improving things like MED and not good for improving physical skills like AGI and STR. And these are the stats that medics not named Dr. Q or Danny need work on.
Quote:Don't get me started on Cliff, because his strength lies in how skilled he is in several fields. Maybe it makes Danny more desirable because he has the Doctor trait, but that doesn't remove the need for a balanced team at the beginning of the game. I'd say with a poll, you'd find most people opt for no medic (hire Ira), or they hire Fox, Spider, MD for various reasons.
I'm sure you're right Ira being the medic of choice for most. She is often my medic. She is an excellent choice for many reasons. But again, my concern is about the application of the traits not popularity. I am not trying to say "Cliff, MD, Dr. Q and MD suck!" I'm trying to ask "Given your goal of restoration of traits and I would assume an attempt to restore the spirit of the original mercs, does making Danny the sole merc with the merc with the Doctor trait make sense? Does leaving Dr. Q without the ability to restore lost attrib points and improve natural healing in sectors and perform field surgery make sense?"
A similar question can be asked about Ira. At 40 MED, does it make sense for her to have Para? I would argue that yes, it does. One of her roles before STOMP was to be a cheap but marginal medic. I would argue that without the Para trait, she would actually fail to fulfill that role so she should have it.
Quote:
I think you'll find that every Merc has their original traits, so don't confuse the issue. If you find a Merc without their original traits, or a close substitute (Vicki=Demo not Throwing because of grenades) i'll admit that i failed in 'restoring old traits'.
How is giving Lynx 'Scouting' instead of 'Marksman' cause for concern? It's a trait he never had, it just makes more sense game-playwise, there was ever only one marksman (sniper) available to hire at AIM, Reaper, now Scope, Rudolf, & Buns have marksman. Lynx & Raven have Scouting because as i said, it suits their price/bios/skillset & there is a theme going with Lynx, Raven, & Cougar being scouts.
I would have preferred if you had aired your concerns a few weeks ago Scienter, it's a bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted. The reason Dr.Q does not have Para, one of your concerns about 'restoring old traits' is because old traits took precedence over new ones.
If it sounded like I was implying that Mercs are missing their original traits then it was not intentional. I never meant to imply that. I am only refering to their bios and what I've understood to be common roles for certain mercs to fill in squads. I mean that when I read 'sharpshooter' in a bio and I see a high MRK value, I would want to hire such a merc to fill roles where accurate shooting is a desired. I'll take Raven as an example. Her bio tells me she was a sharpshooter for a police department. I would expect her to be good at hitting targets at medium to long distances with highly accurate weapons. A scoped assault rifle in single shot mode or a scoped bolt action rifle would make sense. The Marksman trait would assist Raven with this role. I would argue that filling this role with a merc without this trait is not optimal. She has scouting and it doesn't seem obvious at least to me where she would have learned this kind of skill as an urban LE sharpshooter. It seems like the type of skill a guerilla fighter or marine would have. I'm not saying Raven shouldn't have Scouting. I am asking if giving Raven scouting at the expense of Marksman is how you intended in terms of both balance and to fulfill the goal restoring the original spirit of the characters(and I'm assuming this is a goal).
And I think my concerns have a lot to do with that assumption. The original traits have indeed been restored. My concerns center on implementation of STOMP traits that don't map directly to old traits. It isn't that I don't find it reasonable that a merc is a highly able doctor that can't perform field surgery and restore stats. Maybe these are traits people are born with and they can't be learned. Maybe Scouting is more of a 6th sense. Those 4 mercs were born with the gift. Miguel and Dimitri will never learn skills that are similar in all their years of fighting. And I don't mean with with sarcasm. I see it as a specific implementation.
I wish I had brought these things up earlier too. I might have missed earlier posts on this topic. There were only 11 days from the start of this thread until it was adopted into 1.13. Adoption into 1.13 means the choices made affect a lot of players.
And if this wasn't adopted, I'm not sure I would even have posted. At the same time, someone can say to me "Well, if you don't like it, mod out the stuff you don't like." And I would only be able to respond with "OK". I understand my tone seems critical. I do not intend it to be. I am aiming at respectful discussion. If my tone comes off as anything but that, it is a lack of writing skill not an intention to be rude. I'm just a fan of the game. Just like everyone else here. And the goal is just to improve the game we love.
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287682]
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Tue, 26 July 2011 16:32
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| Off_Topic |
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Messages:997
Registered:January 2009 |
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Quote:But again, my concern is about the application of the traits not popularity. I am not trying to say "Cliff, MD, Dr. Q and MD suck!" I'm trying to ask "Given your goal of restoration of traits and I would assume an attempt to restore the spirit of the original mercs, does making Danny the sole merc with the merc with the Doctor trait make sense? Does leaving Dr. Q without the ability to restore lost attrib points and improve natural healing in sectors and perform field surgery make sense?"
Are you suggesting all Medics get the Doctor trait Scienter? This won't work for two reasons:
1. Vince,Fox, MD, Spider, Dr.Q, & Laura all have two 'old' traits to begin with.
2. It would be far more unbalanced to have the cheaper Medic options all have the Doctor trait.
I'm with you on the Dr.Q problem, it does affect his role when playing with STOMP, as i pointed out above,one solution would be to give him Night Vision Goggles and Paramedic.
Danny having the 'Doctor' trait makes sense for the following reasons:
He is the only Medic with one 'old' trait, ∴ he is the only one that can be given the 2 lvls needed to become a Doctor. He is in the right price bracket to justify it. Are you telling me if MD had the Doctor trait, it wouldn't be a bit unbalanced?
Quote:I mean that when I read 'sharpshooter' in a bio and I see a high MRK value, I would want to hire such a merc to fill roles where accurate shooting is a desired. I'll take Raven as an example. Her bio tells me she was a sharpshooter for a police department. I would expect her to be good at hitting targets at medium to long distances with highly accurate weapons. A scoped assault rifle in single shot mode or a scoped bolt action rifle would make sense. The Marksman trait would assist Raven with this role. I would argue that filling this role with a merc without this trait is not optimal. She has scouting and it doesn't seem obvious at least to me where she would have learned this kind of skill as an urban LE sharpshooter. It seems like the type of skill a guerilla fighter or marine would have. I'm not saying Raven shouldn't have Scouting. I am asking if giving Raven scouting at the expense of Marksman is how you intended in terms of both balance and to fulfill the goal restoring the original spirit of the characters(and I'm assuming this is a goal).
They were not arbitrary decisions, Raven was given the 'Scouting' trait because of her price and skills. Of course 'Marksman' suits her bio better than 'Scouting', but given the circumstances, it needed to be that way.
At the beginning of the game, if you want a scout, you need to pay a bit of cash for it. Otherwise the game would be too easy. I notice you are pointing out flaws, but not offering any solutions or alternatives.
Her name lends itself to the scouting role, and carries on the theme of Lynx & Cougar....
There are also several Marksmen now, where as before there was only Reaper available through AIM. (He still is the only full blown sniper at aim).
Al of these things were part of my reasoning behind Lynx & Raven getting the Scouting trait, as the game progresses you have access to more scouts.
Quote:The original traits have indeed been restored. My concerns center on implementation of STOMP traits that don't map directly to old traits.
I did my best to make STOMP feel like Vanilla, but at the same time making sure all the new traits were used, which they were. Can you elaborate on what you meant here, i agree that some things were compromised, but implementing STOMP directly to the old traits perfectly is impossible. I see it more as a modders tool. Take Scully as a good example:
OLD: Knifing Expert
New: Melee, Athletics, Throwing.
Not ideal, but it makes him an expert with Blades and he has the advantage of athletics too.
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| Re: LockNLoad! Released (Old Traits Restored, 5 Starting Kits)[message #287751]
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Wed, 27 July 2011 11:09
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| scienter |
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Messages:4
Registered:July 2011 |
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Off_Topic
Are you suggesting all Medics get the Doctor trait Scienter? This won't work for two reasons:
1. Vince,Fox, MD, Spider, Dr.Q, & Laura all have two 'old' traits to begin with.
2. It would be far more unbalanced to have the cheaper Medic options all have the Doctor trait.
I'm with you on the Dr.Q problem, it does affect his role when playing with STOMP, as i pointed out above,one solution would be to give him Night Vision Goggles and Paramedic.
Danny having the 'Doctor' trait makes sense for the following reasons:
He is the only Medic with one 'old' trait, ∴ he is the only one that can be given the 2 lvls needed to become a Doctor. He is in the right price bracket to justify it. Are you telling me if MD had the Doctor trait, it wouldn't be a bit unbalanced?
No, I am not suggesting that all medics get Doctor. And I do appreciate the framework that STOMP gives you. 2 majors and a minor where minors can replace majors. You make a good point about the lack of suggestions in my posts. I'll give my ideas in this post. Keep in mind, many of my suggestions will be about how things should be and not how to make them work within the current STOMP framework.
With regards to who should get Doctor, I would suggest some MED stat threshold. For example 90. Anyone with 90 MED or higher will get Doctor. Or it can be 88 if it was determined that Danny should be in or 87 if Cliff should be in too. This would seperate the medics into 2 tiers. Currently, the MED stat is pretty much irrelevant. Ira is about as good a medic as Cliff, save for those instances 4HP of field surgury will keep your guy alive or if you couldn't wait the 8 hours of extra healing time before you had to fight. I haven't tested it but I would be surprised if Dr. Q was a better medic than Ira now given he lacks the Para trait and I do not think that was ever the intention.
If this idea were to be considered further, perhaps the Para/Doctor trait could be something totally different. Maybe it could be a minor trait and the effectiveness of the trait would be tied in to the MED stat. This would keep those without the trait from being able to restore lost stats and boost the natural healing rate of mercs in the current sector. These medics would gain the current Para abilities at maybe 50 MED and at 90 MED would gain Doctor abilities. Of course this would require reworking what STOMP does but would go a long way toward allowing mercs to function the way they did in 1.12 and allow for all the goodness and richness STOMP brought. This would also create an incentive to improve the MED stat, a stat that high WIS actually does help with. Currently, having 1 MED matters because of bandaging. The next rank is having Para and then Doctor. We could even throw in improved bandaging at MED 20 or something.
Perhaps we can reconsider STOMP's limit on the number of traits. Would giving 2 majors and 2 minors to some mercs really be unbalanced? I'm not sure about this so I am not suggesting it. I'm throwing it out as an idea to consider. Would Spider with Doctor, NO, and Stealthy really be any different than her with Para, NO and Stealthy? How about Dr. Q with MA, Para and NO? Vince with Doctor, Ambi and Teaching? For these examples I don't think it would upset balance in any way. But I suspect there might be other examples where it would be borderline.
And with regard to Danny, it isn't that I disagree with him having Doctor. He is a fine candidate to have Doctor. My concern is that he is the only one with it. The fact that he had room for it, trait-wise, means to me that the designers avoided giving him any more traits because of how strong his stats were(in a way a similar situation to Cliff, where the stats are high and he didn't get many traits). So it seems to me that giving him, of all people, Doctor, is pushing him over the top.
Quote:They were not arbitrary decisions, Raven was given the 'Scouting' trait because of her price and skills. Of course 'Marksman' suits her bio better than 'Scouting', but given the circumstances, it needed to be that way.
At the beginning of the game, if you want a scout, you need to pay a bit of cash for it. Otherwise the game would be too easy. I notice you are pointing out flaws, but not offering any solutions or alternatives.
Her name lends itself to the scouting role, and carries on the theme of Lynx & Cougar....
There are also several Marksmen now, where as before there was only Reaper available through AIM. (He still is the only full blown sniper at aim).
Al of these things were part of my reasoning behind Lynx & Raven getting the Scouting trait, as the game progresses you have access to more scouts.
Raven had Marksman, Auto and NO before. Scope too(although I thought she should have had Sniper). I see your point about the naming convention... but I hope you gave it more thought than that (that was intended to be a lighthearted joke).
How about the WF mercs? They seem like excellent candidates for the Scouting trait. They are EXPEN$IVE. They have bios where the trait would not seem unlikely. And they have room. Four of them can take an extra trait. And they are available from the start too. Plus, I currently think they are way overpriced for their stats/skills and this would improve their currently poor value.
Quote:I did my best to make STOMP feel like Vanilla, but at the same time making sure all the new traits were used, which they were. Can you elaborate on what you meant here, i agree that some things were compromised, but implementing STOMP directly to the old traits perfectly is impossible. I see it more as a modders tool. Take Scully as a good example:
OLD: Knifing Expert
New: Melee, Athletics, Throwing.
Not ideal, but it makes him an expert with Blades and he has the advantage of athletics too.
My concerns were about the Para/Doctor and Marksman traits. They are STOMP traits that previously were handled just by the base stats. The thing is, the traits affect gameplay a LOT and the fact that they eat up slots that are often needed for other traits that do map directly is causing a conflict. In general, I agree with the choices you made with regards to knifing and throwing. I haven't given Athletics enough consideration. It seems to me that it is best on a character that needs to get in close for knife, melee or hand to hand action but I think there are few instances(Scully being one of them) where this is a combination.
And I do understand how difficult it is to get the feel back to where it was in Vanilla with the STOMP traits. Too many of the traits don't map directly and many of them are competing for slots. Maybe if we figure out that we do indeed want things to be closer to vanilla in feel, we might figure out what things needs to change (perhaps STOMP changes) to get us there.
With regard to your Dr. Q suggestion, I think think it is a good one. But it would be a very pragmatic one. I think it would get Dr. Q closer to how he would have played with Vanilla but it might be a bit worse with regards to getting his traits restored. And maybe the NV gear wouldn't work because MA + Para is 3 majors. Hand to hand, Para and NO? But then MA wouldn't be present. He is probably the most difficult character.
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