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Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #350836]

Sun, 03 September 2017 20:21

Tyxe is currently offline

Messages:78
Registered:May 2012
Location: France

Correct me if i'm wrong but with NcTH having a folding/retractable Stock :
1- increase your aiming level by 1 (very bad)
2- make recall much harder to handle on burst/autofire while standing (no effect on crone/prone standing).
3- decrease time to ready your weapon (mostly unimportant except on some few weapons and even then...)

So in short with NcTH stocks are awful from a gameplay point of view.

Moreover it seems totally unrealistic to me (i'm not fanatic of realism, gameplay must come first but overall it still must make sense somewhat) .
I mean i never fired any anything but watching some shooting video on youtube it's clear you hit much more accurately with a stock than without, especially on burst/autofire mode (your shoulder absorb the recoil and improve stability).
So from a realistic point of view 1- can somewhat be explained (you take a bit more time to aim with stock why not) but 2- is crazy (should be the other way) and i don't know about 3-

A- Does it work the same way with OCtH (and vanilla JA2)?
B- It is intended this way or it is a default of NCtH implementation ?
C- in XML editor (i know outdated and bugged) is there any difference with -101 and 0 value concerning stance modifier for firearm ?

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #350839 is a reply to message #350836]

Mon, 04 September 2017 00:41

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

A folding/retractable stock in 1.13 means that the stock is in folded/retracted position. This means that:

1 - it's harder to aim because you cannot fix your gun at the shoulder
2 - autofire is harder because the recoil is not absorbed by the shoulder
3 - you can ready the gun faster because no stock is in the way

Yes, this is the intended behaviour and the handling modifiers carry over from standing stance if nothing else is defined for the other stances.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #350842 is a reply to message #350839]

Mon, 04 September 2017 11:27

Tyxe is currently offline

Messages:78
Registered:May 2012
Location: France

Damn i completely misunderstood it, thanks for the info.
Are there any ways to "unfold" the folding/retractable stock when it is "built in" the weapon like the various Uzi (it makes those weapons much less effective IMO) ?

silversurfer wrote on Mon, 04 September 2017 00:41

the handling modifiers carry over from standing stance if nothing else is defined for the other stances.

I'm not sure to understand that part.
Taking the FN P90 for example, it has the following NCtH Stance Modifier :
Standing/Crouching/Prone
Percent Handling -10 / -101 / 0
Percent Max CF 30 / -101 / 0

Does that mean that in Crouching position the -10 and 30 modifier apply (-101 treated as blank so the -10/30 from standing stance carry over the crouching stance) and in Prone position no modifier apply (0) ?

[Updated on: Mon, 04 September 2017 11:28]

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #350854 is a reply to message #350842]

Mon, 04 September 2017 18:34

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

Folding and unfolding is not possible in default 1.13. There are some mods that use item transformations to do that.

Yes, modifiers apply from top to bottom (standing -> prone). So the P90 will have the same modifiers for standing and crouched but prone three modifiers are set to 0 so no bonus/penalty there. If you look at Items.xml you can see that for standing stance there is a -1 aim levels defined which is not overwritten for prone so this one modifier carries over from standing to prone.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351182 is a reply to message #350854]

Wed, 04 October 2017 21:07

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

So weapons that come with a fixed folding stock are always fired in folded position? That's a bit ridiculous with some weapons - who would use something like the SCAR sniper variant with the stock folded?

Would it be possible to make it a toggle-able feature where a fixed set of bonuses/maluses is applied with a
key press - like toggling aiming modes, without using item transformations?

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351184 is a reply to message #351182]

Wed, 04 October 2017 21:56

edmortimer is currently offline

Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free

Quote:

Would it be possible to make it a toggle-able feature where a fixed set of bonuses/maluses is applied with a
key press - like toggling aiming modes, without using item transformations?

I don't know about that, but in AV I removed all fixed folding/retractable stocks and made all folding/retractable stocks an attachment. So you attach the folding/retractable stock to use it folded/retracted, and remove the folding/retractable stock to use it as a fixed stock. A bit of work in the XML but not nearly as much work as item transformations.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351192 is a reply to message #351182]

Thu, 05 October 2017 13:33

Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany

Cardinal wrote on Wed, 04 October 2017 18:07

So weapons that come with a fixed folding stock are always fired in folded position? That's a bit ridiculous with some weapons - who would use something like the SCAR sniper variant with the stock folded?

Would it be possible to make it a toggle-able feature where a fixed set of bonuses/maluses is applied with a
key press - like toggling aiming modes, without using item transformations?

While possible, this is unlikely to be done. I can speak only for myself of course, but I regard stocks as the most useless of all attachments and never use them, so o have no interest in this - and we'd need another free hotkey combo for this, which is getting increasingly harder to find.

I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.

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Captain

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351194 is a reply to message #351192]

Thu, 05 October 2017 19:12

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

Yeah, that would be a waste of time.

What bothers me is that with stock weapon data you can't really NOT use folding stocks without deleting the stance modifiers from items.xml

What I'thinking about is doing something similar to what edmortimer mentioned - make stocks an actual attachment for all weapons that can have them, but instead of placing/removing the attachments I'd like to create folded/unfolded item transformations for the stocks themselves.

However, I'm a little lost when it comes to the attachment system xmls. Is there an editing guide somewhere?

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351195 is a reply to message #351194]

Thu, 05 October 2017 19:23

edmortimer is currently offline

Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free

Quote:

However, I'm a little lost when it comes to the attachment system xmls. Is there an editing guide somewhere?

If only there was such a guide!

Take a look at the Arulco Folding Stock (AFS) mod. He used item transformations for his folding stock modification.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351197 is a reply to message #351195]

Thu, 05 October 2017 22:03

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

Item transformations are fairly straightforward.

What I haven't figured out yet is how to add attachment slots to weapons. Any pointers?

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351212 is a reply to message #350836]

Fri, 06 October 2017 22:53

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

I removed all the stance modifiers that represent folding/retracting stocks and made all the stocks into actual transformable attachments.

Stocks have no bonuses/penalties by default, and have the standard:

<ItemSizeBonus>-1</ItemSizeBonus>
<PercentReadyTimeAPReduction>33</PercentReadyTimeAPReduction>
<PercentMaxCounterForce>-20</PercentMaxCounterForce>
<PercentCounterForceAccuracy>-20</PercentCounterForceAccuracy>
<AimLevels>1</AimLevels>

when folded, for both folding and retracting stocks.

There is no visual difference between folded/unfolded stocks though, other than [folded] and [retracted] being added to the name.

The xmls are here if someone's interested (Stock game data - gamedir 2393):

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=07044678856389715953

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351219 is a reply to message #351212]

Sat, 07 October 2017 14:07

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

Thank you for the work and the files. I have taken a look at them and if I understand them correctly you do the following:

Currently we have the following stocks:

1008 Folding Stock (folded with penalties)
1009 Retractable Stock (retracted with penalties)

In order to get rid of the penalties we had to remove the attachment.

Now you modified these original attachments and created some new items:

old items (modified):

1008 Folding Stock (unfolded, no penalties except for small CTH penalty)
1009 Retractable Stock (extended, no penalties except for small CTH penalty)

new items:

1745 Folding Stock (folded with penalties)
1746 Folding Stock (built-in, unfolded, no penalties except for small CTH penalty)
1747 Folding Stock (built-in, folded with penalties)
1748 Retractable Stock (retracted with penalties)
1749 Retractable Stock (built-in, extended, no penalties except for small CTH penalty)
1750 Retractable Stock (built-in, retracted with penalties)

Item transformations:

Item 1008 transforms into 1745 and vice versa.
Item 1009 transforms into 1748 and vice versa.
Item 1746 transforms into 1747 and vice versa.
Item 1749 transforms into 1750 and vice versa.

The built-in attachments cannot be removed (flag "inseparable"). The unfolded/extended stocks don't do anything except for generating a small CTH penalty because they are not as stable as a fixed stock.

Still I wonder why you lowered the max counter force penalty from -40% to -20% for the old stocks. Is that intentional or a copy + paste error? I assume it's intentional because the built-in stocks also only had a -20% modifier so I kept the -20%.

One thing I noticed while trying out your files is that on weapons with built-in stocks sometimes they come as folded and sometimes as unfolded. For better comparability between guns I set them all to unfolded.

I added your files (with some small fixes and the default unfolded setting) to GameDir 2394.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351221 is a reply to message #351219]

Sat, 07 October 2017 14:53

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

Yes, I lowered the penalties mostly because of the previous built in stock modifiers, but also to "soften" them up a bit and make them more "attractive" to be used in folded state with MPs and SMGs which already have a pretty low "AP cost to raise weapon".

I made stocks folded by default for weapons whose images show them folded, mostly machine pistols and some SMG.

What I haven't adjusted (I think I might've changed a few) are item sizes for weapons that used to have fixed folded stocks, I wasn't sure if that was accounted for already.

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351222 is a reply to message #351221]

Sat, 07 October 2017 16:59

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

Cardinal wrote on Sat, 07 October 2017 13:53

I made stocks folded by default for weapons whose images show them folded, mostly machine pistols and some SMG.

That was my first guess too. Still, attachable stocks (item 1008 and 1009) are now unfolded by default so I decided to make all stocks unfolded by default to make it easier to compare guns.
This is also good for the AI who can now spray and pray with a bit better accuracy. After all they don't know how to use item transformations.

Cardinal wrote on Sat, 07 October 2017 13:53

What I haven't adjusted (I think I might've changed a few) are item sizes for weapons that used to have fixed folded stocks, I wasn't sure if that was accounted for already.

I have seen a few changes to item sizes. They make sense as the default size is now with an unfolded/extended stock and only if we fold/retract it the size will be decreased by 1.
Actually all modified weapons with built-in stocks should have their size increased by 1 to reflect that.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351245 is a reply to message #351222]

Tue, 10 October 2017 23:37

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

Honestly, most of the item sizes are fine. For the most part they are in line with non folding stock weapon sizes.

I adjusted mostly the AK variants (standard AR- size 7, carbines - size 6, compact carbines - size 5), and some others.

I also:

-removed <ToHitBonus>-1</ToHitBonus> from weapons that used to have modifiers representing permanent folding stocks, since stock items now carry the penalty (this is an OCTH modifier, right?)

-removed the folding stock from xm-8 compact carbine and added fixed recoil penalties - apparently the one in the game is the stockless butt-cap version

-fixed some mistakes I made previously with assigning default attachments

-Unrelated to the stocks, I changed the PercentHandling modifier for the combat knife and the KCB knife from -10 to 10. Unless I'm mistaken, this should mean that when used as bayonets they now properly add a handling penalty instead a bonus.

I used a different file hoster because I'm getting a "dangerous site warning" with tinyupload.
The files are here:

https://ufile.io/j2k7w

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Corporal

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351258 is a reply to message #351245]

Sun, 15 October 2017 11:42

Messages:2791
Registered:May 2009

Sorry for the late reply. I added your changes to GameDir 2396. Thanks again for all the work. It's nice to have these transformations in stock 1.13. happy

happy

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Folding/Retractable Stock with NCtH[message #351275 is a reply to message #351258]

Mon, 16 October 2017 21:45

Cardinal is currently offline

Messages:45
Registered:September 2014

No problem, glad I could contribute. And thank you and everybody who's been working on this mod for so many years.

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Corporal

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