Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Feature Requests » Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Bags[message #326409] Wed, 09 October 2013 23:19 Go to next message
hitgena

 
Messages:16
Registered:June 2011
Hi,

just wanted to share an idea i had recently.
I think it would we cool if there would be an item "sleeping bag"
which could help the mercs to sleep better in sektors which do not have any houses ore buildings (swamp, desert , mountain and so on...). this item would provide faster recovery for the mercs.
Mabe it could be included in bagpacks, in order to be able to drop it before battle.


Another thing.
I think it could be fun to introduce a renting system for the cities.
If mercs stay in an citiy sektor with houses, the player will have to pay a certain amount of rent each day for every merc. Depending on the sektor the rent would vary. For example:
San Mona rent 20-30 dollars a night . Balime 100-200 dollars.
The more expensive sektors could provide faster energy recovery .

The sleeping bag idea could be combined with the hunter skill.
Hunters provide faster energy recovery (while sleeping in sleeping bags in the wild) for the whole squad.

The two ideas combined could motivate the player to stay outside city sektors more frequently and to "build" camps in wilderness sektors.

What do you guys think?



greeds
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326410] Wed, 09 October 2013 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Asthner

 
Messages:45
Registered:August 2010
Location: Poland, Lodz
Sleeping bags sound interesting, but renting seems a bit far fetched for me. If the city is loyal, then providing accommodation for the mercs fighting against the queen seems quite obvious. If the city is in the red, then no one would risk selling anything
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326411] Wed, 09 October 2013 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
derek

 
Messages:150
Registered:April 2010
Yeah, sleeping bags sounds cool... but rent?! You do get "paid" when enough loyalty.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326414] Thu, 10 October 2013 00:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
I think it should not give a bonus. Instead it should negate a penalty. Otherwise you'll get compound bonuses resulting mercs who needs to sleep just a few hours. I believe Razor needs only 3 hours of sleep. How much lower it can get.

Also about the renting beds stuff, mercs get the revenues of the mines so mercs fighting against Queen is not an act of random kindness, it's a business deal, it's only fair they demand money for the beds. Maybe not logical but fair.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326416] Thu, 10 October 2013 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3747
Registered:July 2009
Never mind that several mods do have facilities that let you pay for sleeping in a comfy bed.


Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326418] Thu, 10 October 2013 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zombiehunter

 
Messages:185
Registered:March 2011
Location: Franconia, Germany
Paying people in Balime money for their beds? Those war-profiteering elitist suppositories of the queen? Hell no! Joke aside, I don't see a necessity for that (except if that fee includes some female sleep improving specialist ^^ )

After all, in Balime most of the houses are deserted, so the owners wouldn't mind my mercs crashing there for the time being.
In Alma you got the Barracks, plenty of beds to sleep there.
As in the various SAM-Sites.
And then you have in every major settlement an ACA-Building, which is able to accomodate a few mercs. (In Vanilla you still have the prison cell beds, in BigMaps for example, there will be beds for garrisoned troops in each ACA-Building)

And don't forget, you can compare your mercs with a liberating army and IIRC, the American soldiers were greeted with much hospitality in France in 1944.

The sleeping bag on the other hand is actually a neat idea, add a variety of sleeping bags (starting with some supermarket 10
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326423] Thu, 10 October 2013 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:2005
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany
Zombiehunter
(except if that fee includes some female sleep improving specialist ^^ )

That's already available in San Mona ... Wink
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326426] Thu, 10 October 2013 06:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Zombiehunter

 
Messages:185
Registered:March 2011
Location: Franconia, Germany
Sam_Hotte
Zombiehunter
(except if that fee includes some female sleep improving specialist ^^ )

That's already available in San Mona ... Wink


Yep, that's why it's the only acceptable exception to the otherwise unnecessary pay-for-your-bed feature Wink
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326427] Thu, 10 October 2013 06:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SharkD

 
Messages:360
Registered:July 2003
Zombiehunter
And don't forget, you can compare your mercs with a liberating army and IIRC, the American soldiers were greeted with much hospitality in France in 1944.

I heard on NPR how this 'hospitality' is exaggerated a bit.

A lot of the locals resented American troops because of all the whores they attracted from around France. Public sex too. And rapes (though only the black soldiers mainly got busted for stuff like that).
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326429] Thu, 10 October 2013 09:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hitgena

 
Messages:16
Registered:June 2011
hi guys,

yeah, i see your point.
Mabe it is unnecessary to have this "pay for your bed " feature.
And there is the facility thing which provides something like that.

BUT the sleeping bag thing could be a nice addition.

:sleep:
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326430] Thu, 10 October 2013 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
Paid rest: Wouldn't the 'easy' fix be for any modder wanting this to simply define a facility for Rest and then assign that to any map area he wants the rest set up on.

the Sleeping bag idea has some merit if a balanced way to apply it can be made.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326436] Thu, 10 October 2013 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
Sleeping bags wouldn't be that hard to implement. They could be handled like the sleep bonus that facilities provide.

We would need:

- new tag for items 0/1
- maybe new ini option to set bonus value?
- new function to check for sleeping bag in mercs inventory
- incorporate the bonus in function RestCharacter()

I don't know how people think about new tags or ini options however. We have lots of them already. Wink

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326467] Fri, 11 October 2013 09:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JMich

 
Messages:560
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece
silversurfer
- new tag for items 0/1
- maybe new ini option to set bonus value?

Personal opinion would be not an ini value, but a bonus value to the item itself. So a basic sleeping bag would give a +5% bonus, while a more comfortable one could give a +10% or +15%. Make the bonus dependant on item quality as well, since a sleeping bag that gets hit by explosives shouldn't be as comfortable as a brand new one.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326475] Fri, 11 October 2013 12:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
I've been looking at the facility modifiers again and it looks like the basic beds which provide 5% bonus do nothing to regain energy faster.
The maximum value that a merc can regain is 17 points per hour + facility bonus. So 5% of 17 points is 0,85. Since regeneration is an Integer value it is still 17.
That means that the standard beds that we have in barracks for example do nothing. The same would apply to the basic sleeping bag. So I think that we need to adjust facilities first. Also I think that a sleeping bag is never as good as a standard bed so sleeping bags shouldn't outperform facilities.

Why is the maximum regeneration set to 17? This is because those "I never need to sleep" mercs only need 3 hours to fully recover from being tired and the designers didn't want to go below that. The "tired" threshold is 50 breath points. 3 * 17 = 51 which can bring a merc back to 100 in 3 hours.

I propose the following:
  • Move the bonuses in front of the 17 points barrier. This would prevent that any tired merc can recover in a shorter time than 3 hours. This may cause these "3 hour mercs" to have no benefit from beds or sleeping bags.
  • Adjust the bonuses from facilities to actually have an effect.
  • Let the sleeping bags provide a percentage bonus which should be below the bonus of beds in stock 1.13.
  • And like JMich says: The bonus should be connected to the object status.

[Updated on: Fri, 11 October 2013 12:07] by Moderator


Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326532] Sat, 12 October 2013 14:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
I'm implementing this at the moment but I have a question. Should we allow the sleeping bag bonus when the character is using a facility with assignment type "rest" or "patient"? I wouldn't allow it because the character is already using a bed in this case.

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326537] Sat, 12 October 2013 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
Done.

I never thought that the sleep system has so many bugs. Very Happy

  • Mercs with Night Ops trait should sleep better during the day, mercs without that trait should sleep better during the night. The complete opposite was the case. *fixed*
  • Some facilities had wrong tags on WF maps mod. *fixed*
  • The tag in FacilityTypes.xml makes no sense at all. When a merc is not assigned to a facility only ambient effects take place. When he is assigned to the facility but awake he will regenerate based on tag. When he is assigned to the facility but asleep he will regenerate based on the tag which was always set to a lower value. So sleeping is worse than simply idling? Wtf? :gaga: *fixed* Sleeping is now always better than idling.
  • There were limits set for the minimum and maximum recovery time which was 3 hours to 18 hours. This limit was ignored by facilities. *fixed*
  • Modifiers are now FLOATs to allow for more precision. Final value will be rounded up so even small bonuses can have an effect now. Before they were useless.
Now back to the real topic:
  • In Items.xml there is a new tag which you can assign to items, sleeping bags for example. This is a percentage bonus. Reasonable values are from 0 (no bonus) to 100 (recover twice as fast). No merc can recover more than 17 breath points per hour (unless exhausted below 50 breath points). So don't even bother to set the bonus too high.
  • I decided that bonuses will NOT stack. Otherwise some players might put 3 sleeping bags in their inventory... The game will pick the biggest bonus so if you have several items with you the best one will be chosen. Bonus depends on object status. If the item is damaged you will receive less bonus.
  • I also decided that the game only uses the facility rest/patient bonus OR the bonus and not both at the same time. It's your decision if you rather sleep in a comfy bed or a sleeping bag.
This feature requires at least exe revision 6483. It would be best to use GameDir 1815 with it because it has the basic tag and the fixed FacilityTypes.xml.

For WF maps 6.07 FacilityTypes.xml was fixed in 6482.

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #326544] Sat, 12 October 2013 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:714
Registered:July 2008
It seems a nice and balanced implementation.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #327489] Sat, 02 November 2013 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
niculinux

 
Messages:82
Registered:January 2012
Location: Italy
Cool idea! I think they may be found/bought/looted in the game, not only be bought Smile Those should grant faster tiredness/health recover.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329071] Wed, 18 December 2013 17:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RuiZiuR

 
Messages:41
Registered:April 2007
Location: Austin
I really like the idea of sleeping bags negating a sleep penalty. Haven't played in some time. Waiting for the new stable release and hope this makes it on there. *crosses fingers*
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329416] Wed, 01 January 2014 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AvianSavara

 
Messages:33
Registered:December 2013
Location: Montr
Nice. Just found this thead.

After some recent JA2-induced insomnia, I was giving a lot of thought to a new sleep system for 1.13. You'll notice a lot of the same ideas already discussed in this thread crop up, but hey... fundamentals is fundamentals hehe. Razz

We know that JA2 vanilla mercs are badasses who combat-snooze face down in the dirt with all their gear still on, but would anyone ever choose to sleep that way if given an alternative option? My guess is NOPE.

Default option: Sleeping in the rough. 50% penalty to your sleep quality and duration. Any modifiers after that help counter that initial handicap.

Basic concepts
Sleep quality: Based on your sleeping conditions.
Can be improved by relative safety (Ex: being in town or a sector with buildings, or sectors with no adjacent enemy patrols spotted recently, etc)
or enhanced by sleeping gear (Ex: folding mats, sleeping bags, bivvy-bags, a real bed, etc)
or everyone's favourite thing: DRUGS! (Melatonin pills, various soporifics, etc)

Sleep duration:
Different mercs/IMPs/RPCs should have different sleep tolerances (some people are good in short 3-4 hour shifts, some people sleep 12 hours, and nine-to-fivers need their respectable 8 hours) and patterns (night-ops people are generally nocturnal, meaning they get more tired during the day when they would rather be sleeping).

Sleep pattern:
"Nine-to-fiver" - Requires 7-8 hours straight to be efficient, particularly at night.
"The Sloth" - Apparently needs 10+ hours of sleep. Suffers more from worsened sleep condition.
"Nocturnal" - Night-ops types. Get more tired during the day, but benefit from better sleep quality during daytime.
"Military power-napper" - Doesn't benefit from long sleeps. Prefers frequent, short, efficient naps between assignments.
"Insomniac" - extended wakefulness period, but reduced performance near the tail-end of it. Light sleeper.

Beyond this, traits and personalities could very well be implemented :
Loner archetypes don't like hearing others snore and whatnot. Sociable types can't sleep alone or else they kind of freak out.
Intellectual types are more likely to be insomniac because their mental hamster's always spinning the wheel.

Item Roundup:
Some items listed here are already included in the current version of the game, they would only be needed to be tagged accordingly.
Sleeping gear: Folding mat, civilian sleeping bag, military sleeping system, fire blanket, foldable camping cot
Sleeping aids: Melatonin pills, serotonin pills, valerian extract, beer (the hops make ya sleepy)
Wakefulness aids: Wake-up pills, Modafinil, Coffee, Energy drinks, military-type energy gum.

Sector tags:
SECTOR_HAS_BUILDING (boolean) (sleep quality improved)
SECTOR_CONTROLLED_BY_PLAYER (I'm sure that must already exist)
SECTOR_JEOPARDIZED (boolean, if false, sleep is less likely to be interrupted = feeling of safety)

Sleeping gear values: (numeric, range 1-5) (as Silversurfer mentionned, they should not stack, though you should be able to combine a bedroll with a bedding)
Bedrolls:
- Sleeping mat (1)
- Hammock (2)
- Foldable camping cot (3)
Bedding:
- Fire blanket (1)
- Civilian sleeping bag (2)
- Military sleeping bag (3)
Mixed-use
- Military sleeping system (4) (note: includes a sleeping mat and can't be combined with other types)


Let me know what you folks think Smile

Note: I've excluded any discussion of bivouacs/tents because this is still a sneak-around-arulco game, but feel free to devellop!

[Updated on: Sat, 04 January 2014 04:55] by Moderator

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329431] Wed, 01 January 2014 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Honestly ? If I want to go camping and be molested by scoutmasters , then I'd join the scouts !

Seriously , what actual benefits does 'the game' get using this idea , and why would 'the player' spend game time on this ?

You could just load up the Sims and play 'wilderness' scenarios .

Not for me , but hey , if that what floats your boat .... Smile


Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329433] Wed, 01 January 2014 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3532
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Considering JA2 has sleep/rest implemented as a way to regain stats, ain't that bad of an idea to tweak it a bit.

Btw lockie, what in the God's name version of Sims you're playing to get sexual molesters in the game?


Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329437] Wed, 01 January 2014 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Ehh , considering I've never actually played Sim anything , hehheh , probably reading too many expose in the Super Soaraway Sun ! Gotta stop reading that crap :laugh:


Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329526] Fri, 03 January 2014 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AvianSavara

 
Messages:33
Registered:December 2013
Location: Montr
So.... I guess now's not the time to pitch my scout sexual molestation mod? :sadyellow:

Basically, Lockie, I guess we're only trying to find new ways of making the game harder without resorting to "make enemies tougher!" Wink

[Updated on: Sat, 04 January 2014 04:56] by Moderator

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #329531] Sat, 04 January 2014 00:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie

 
Messages:3853
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
It's just that for me , I'd rather find ways to kill the opposition , rather than new ways to waste gaming time :viking:



Re: Sleeping Bags[message #332968] Thu, 22 May 2014 05:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Julix

 
Messages:94
Registered:June 2010
Location: Germany

I just stumbled over a sleeping bag in my game. Don't remember changing any settings, so I went and looked it up and this is all I found. Where can I find out more about the sleeping bags as they are implemented in the most current version?
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #332974] Thu, 22 May 2014 10:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
As far as I know nobody changed my original implementation that I posted a few posts up. The sleeping bag that is present in stock 1.13 gives a 20 percent bonus to BP regain while sleeping. I don't know what modders added to their XMLs.

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #332980] Thu, 22 May 2014 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rummtata

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2011
Location: Germany
Same thing here. Would you also explain under which circumstances the bonus applies? Is it enough if the sleeping bag is anywhere in a mercs inventory? Does it have to be "activated"? Sadly, the item description is not very helpful in that respect Wink

[haha, imagine IRL: "Unroll the sleeping bag. Open, lie down, close. Think of sheep."]
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #332988] Thu, 22 May 2014 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
You only need to have the sleeping bag in your inventory when the merc is resting.

Re: Sleeping Bags[message #333010] Thu, 22 May 2014 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Julix

 
Messages:94
Registered:June 2010
Location: Germany

I like the way AvianSavara said it: trying to find *new ways* of making the game harder without resorting to "make enemies tougher!"

Making the enemies tougher can be done in many ways, the best one would be to actually make them smarter (i.e. one of the hardest thing to do, it seems, is messing the with the AI in such a way that it comes out much better after). Bad changes to the AI (making them omniscient or other things) could make the game harder but not in a realistic/fair way. - You could make them unfairly better (i.e. they get less damaged from shots, and things like that, in such a way that it's still strategically interesting for people who like playing at a huge handicap, but it would break my immersion a little to think my mercs are sissies compared to her troops... Very Happy

I'm playing without the food mod mostly, because like you I don't necessarily feel like wasting more time not doing what I consider the "playing" part of the game. - However the game is never hard enough for food really to matter (cause I don't play it on that high difficulty), thus making it a waste of time. But if you did want to make the game harder, fighting horribly because you're nearly starving would effectively make the enemy tougher without making them unfairly better. Similarly if you sleep worse cause cause someone decided to make you sleep in the desert without a sleeping bag, that too could be fun for simulationist players.

I even went as far once as thinking about proper hygene and how it matters a lot for morale and sneaking and a few things in real life, but even if it was automated and didn't take up new inventory slots (we just assume they have access to soap and water anytime they're in towns) and they use it when they need it unless battle was going on, it could still matter... also we already have slobs and snobs as variables for characters, so imagine if a snob with "it's important to me" is hanging out with the redneck psycho slob guy who's proud of the stench he's built up covering himself in enemy blood... opportunity for more roleplay and stuff. -- However since inventory management is taking me way to long already, I feel like this is a little like needing a cleaning kit and needing to tell my people to clean their guns. It's something every proper soldier would do with their own gun on a regular basis anyways - still if you're on a long ass desert mission where stuff gets dirty faster it could be relevant to a battle. Instead to me most of the time it just means spending more energy on sorting through almost equivalent weapons to take the one that is least dirty while in best condition.

Anyways, got a little off topic, my point is more options is better, even if I won't use a lot of them.
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #333091] Sun, 25 May 2014 02:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
minimice

 
Messages:6
Registered:May 2014
I agree with you there.

Still, I will give some further insights about what people in the field actually use/prefer/need.
First off a sleeping bag is useful but mostly used in the cold region or simple where ever it gets cold at night. Anywhere else however most people use a hammock. Seriously, it's the most used sleeping item in the world.
Back to sleeping bag, since you civilians don't know, Cool you need a sleeping mat under your bag. It keeps ya warm and dry and has other uses. Its one of the top priority for being in the field. And no it's not only about getting sick. There are adverse effects to performance of average Joe, that is.

Then you need ponchos, mosquito net, toilet paper, and bags. This is no joke these are vital! Unless you are more hard core than Rambo. :laugh:
Re: Sleeping Bags[message #333102] Sun, 25 May 2014 11:09 Go to previous message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2621
Registered:May 2009
The good thing about the "sleeping bag" implementation is that you can add whatever sleeping utility you would like, be it a hammock, a camp bed, some sleeping mat or combination of those. The only restriction that applies is that only the item with the highest counts for the bonus to regained breath points.

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