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Re: NCTH Scope penalties below optimal range - broken?[message #322143]
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Fri, 28 June 2013 01:43
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Strohmann |
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Messages:287
Registered:August 2011 Location: Division Thought Crimes |
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I can't answer that question, because i am/was not involved in decision process around feature implentation/default settings for stock 1.13, so i can just puzzle the course of these events together.
What i found was this:
ChrisL, Reconsidering the Scope Sight Range Bonus Thread[...]Please remember that the current "default" for SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER is just a modifier I basically pulled out of thin air mostly because it set 10x scopes so that the minimum effective range matched the standard sight range for the scope (i.e. 49 tiles). In other words, a "normal" merc using a 10x scope with a 0.7 multipler has 0 tiles of unpenalized usage. But at least this merc never gets a double penalty (too close AND invisible which is what you get above a 0.7 multiplier). 0.6 would give about 7 tiles of unpenalized usage and 0.5 (which I've been working with in my recent tests) gives about 14 tiles.
Otherwise, yes. the "sweet spot" is 70 tiles and the minimum is 49, based on the numbers you're using. But that "sweet spot" is not actual vision range. You'll get hit with the "invisible target" penalty because the games LOS calculations will say that this same 10x scope can't actually see a target beyond 49 tiles. All that 70 tile "sweet spot" means is the "distance aperture" at 70 tiles with a 10x scope is identical to the "distance aperture" at 7 tiles without a scope. This has nothing to do with visibility, LOS or muzzle stability (those are all factored in subsequent steps).[...]
Headrock, HAM 5 Alpha ThreadQuote:[...][I found SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER was 1 in the HAM 5 data][...]
For a reason. Especially now that you have multi-length scopes, using this at 0.7 skews the game towards scopes, making them better than iron sights in any situation. It was something me and ChrisL had a big disagreement about - and now that scopes are adjustable I think his side of the argument is no longer valid (or is less valid than the argument against using this constant). Headrock, HAM 5 Alpha ThreadQuote:[...][Laser-Scope balance is better now][...] This is the result of raising the Scope Coefficient from 0.7 back to the original 1.0. ChrisL, for a reason I couldn't understand then and still can't, increased the efficiency of scopes to make them more useful at lower than their "optimal" range (14t for a 2x scope, 49 for a 7x scope, etc). As a result, most if not all scopes received a high Mag Factor even at iron-sights range, thus being better than lasers.
Whatever his "fix" was supposed to do (and again, I didn't even understand it back when he put it in), it's going to be meaningless once we get multi-mode scopes (and already have them in UC thanks to Wil473). So that's what you're experiencing, basically: scopes working as intended.
I can add that it shares also the same problem with all these cth-constants: they govern all scopes the same way, you can't configure them for individual items. Also after Headrock disappeared, noone feels responsible for NCTH any longer (ChrisL and others also left this project), so it stagnated; insofar i appreciate your effort.
[Updated on: Fri, 28 June 2013 01:50] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: NCTH Scope penalties below optimal range - broken?[message #322751]
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Mon, 15 July 2013 19:00
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Thor |
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Messages:423
Registered:February 2007 Location: Belgium |
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Penalties for 10X and 7x scopes are too high as we can hardly use the scopes anymore. I appreciate that you guys try to put this penalty feature in, but the scopes should still be useful, right?
Can we work on this to get NCTH to something playable at least? AI seems to miss a lot with their sniper rifles now... And for myself, even an assault rifle with 7x scope isn't useable for long. In some instances the "." button doesn't even work to change to metal sights.
If there won't be changes towards something playable with default settings, maybe it's handy to sum up here which parameters can be adjusted in the game now. I've read all through this thread, but it all sounds pretty confusing...
Is it even possible to tweak the sight range of a scope?
I understand that one can change the scope range with the scope range multiplier... After what I've read here, I think it would be better to set it even to 0,5... What would this imply?
Anyway, in my view, every current scope should be useful for a certain range without penalty... And I think it wouldn't hurt to be able to see further with a 10x and 7x scope than we can see now. Certainly when I think about the big maps...
[Updated on: Mon, 15 July 2013 19:12] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: NCTH Scope penalties below optimal range - broken?[message #322752]
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Mon, 15 July 2013 19:19
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Thor |
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Messages:423
Registered:February 2007 Location: Belgium |
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Let's say we can get the scope sight range to 60 for a 10X scope instead of 49.
and change the NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE: 6
Then optimal range for the different scopes would change to:
2X: 12 tiles/120m instead of 14 tiles/140m
4X: 24 instead of 28
7X: 42 instead of 49
10X: 60 instead of 70
[Updated on: Mon, 15 July 2013 20:42] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: NCTH Scope penalties below optimal range - broken?[message #322765]
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Mon, 15 July 2013 22:39
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Thor |
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Messages:423
Registered:February 2007 Location: Belgium |
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Thanks for the good info & answers, silversurfer!
Quote:
I think that this would penalize the shooting without scopes because iron sights (scope factor 1.0) depend on "NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE". Iron sights would be even worse than now.
I completely agree with you on this... A pity.
Quote:
I would rather lower the "SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER" (I'm using 0.7 at the moment) and maybe raise the "AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE" value a bit.
I will try it out with AIM_TOO_CLOSE_SCOPE to -2 and SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to -7.
But if I understand correctly, then a 10X scope will always have a small penalty unless the target is just in sight, 49 tiles away. One tile closer, though, it already has a small penalty... Would be nice if we could tweak this range a bit, but well...
A scope 2X according to items.xml has:
5
10
10
A scope 4X according to items.xml has:
10
20
20
A scope 7X according to items.xml has:
25
50
10
50
A scope 10X according to items.xml has:
45
90
15
90
Any idea how "nightsight", "daysight", "cavesight", and "bright light sight" are eventually calculated? I can't see a link between the 90 DayVisionRangeBonus and the 49 tiles of actual sight... The same for NCTH & OCTH?
And I guess at night or in caves you can see better with a 10X scope, but you still can't shoot anything from such a short distance, right?
(The last year I've always played with NCTH, maybe I'll try the old system once more as well... But it will also be getting used to again. This really is very complicated and delicate shit).
[Updated on: Mon, 15 July 2013 23:11] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: NCTH Scope penalties below optimal range - broken?[message #322799]
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Tue, 16 July 2013 03:37
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Thor |
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Messages:423
Registered:February 2007 Location: Belgium |
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Aha...
Bonus /10... That's really not that much if I understand correctly... Scope 10X then means +9 tiles, Scope 7X means +5 tiles, Scope 4X means +2 tiles, Scope 2X means only one tile during day, right?...
You sure about this?
Normal vision range during day without scopes seems to be 26 tiles?... Now that I see this, I think the Dayvisionrange boni are percentages of this 26, is that possible?
26+23,4 tiles=49,4 tiles day vision range (+90% with a 10X scope)
26+13 tiles=39 tiles day vision range (+50% with a 7X scope)
26+5,2 tiles=31 tiles day vision range (+20 with a 4X scope)
26+2,6 tiles=28,6 tiles day vision range (+10% with a 2X scope)
26 tiles= normal day vision range without scope.
Anyway, 10X scopes are expensive and default with the fancy sniper rifles. I want to be able to use them.
[Updated on: Tue, 16 July 2013 03:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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